Episode 83: The Five Paths of Getting Consulting Business—with Scott Love

Deb Zahn: Hi. I want to welcome you to this week's episode of The Craft of Consulting podcast. So I'm going to make a really bold statement and I believe it 100%. If you listen to what my podcast guest says, and you take action on what he says to do, you are going to get way more consulting business than you're getting today. 100%. So my guest is Scott Love. He is a consultant. A headhunter. He has lived many lives. He really knows his stuff about how to get consulting business and keep your pipeline full of work that you love to do. Can't wait for you to hear it. So let's get started.

I want to welcome to my show today, Scott Love. Scott, thank you so much for joining me.

Scott Love: Oh, thanks for having me, Deb. I'm excited to be here.

Deb Zahn: So let's start off. Tell my listeners what you do.

Scott Love: Well, I am what's known as a recruiter. I'm a headhunter. I'm a high-stakes headhunter. I'm a legal power broker. I recruit partners for international law firms. But I also produce a podcast called The Rainmaking Podcast. And sometimes I'll speak at conferences on client development.

Deb Zahn: That's right. And one of the reasons I want to have you on is how lawyers get business and how consultants get business are really similar. And I know that you've also been at conferences where you're also speaking to consultants. So I think this is perfect.

Now I'm going to ask about your origin story because I have to say, I think you've won. You have the coolest origin story I've ever heard. So how did you get into this?

Scott Love: Right. Well, I went to this little party college called the Naval Academy. It's like a four-year college but like a prison. But you get a degree. And you're on active duty. And I loved it. It was a great experience. I was in the Navy. I did the Navy thing. I was third in command of a ship when I was 22. And then, when I was 24, at the age where it is true that you know everything-

Deb Zahn: I remember that.

Scott Love: I got to be an organizational development consultant. I was in the right place at the right time. The Navy had an initiative called Total Quality Leadership. So when I was 24, I was teaching Deming management methods when the Navy had this big initiative. So I got a lot of training experience. And then got into head hunting in 1995 and knew I would never look back the first day on the job.

I knew I'm going to do this for the rest of my life because I just loved the idea of having meaningful conversations with people who are much smarter than you and making an impact in their lives. I started a training company. In 2002, I had a really good year. That was a year that a lot of people weren't doing too well. And I made just a few significant changes to what I was doing as a recruiter. And at the end of the year, I said, “I'm going to start a training company.” And I did that. And so I would train recruiting firms and staffing firms all over the United States. All over the world. I started out back in the day with audio tapes. The VHS cassettes.

Deb Zahn: You just dated yourself.

Scott Love: That's right. CDs and DVDs and all that. But eventually, an online platform and over 4,600 staffing and recruiting companies all over the world from 36 countries. They bought that. And I just didn't like doing the work of coaching and running a training business. So I got back into recruiting and because I consulted so many legal recruiting firms, I knew that that seemed pretty cool. So I got into that. And that's what I do. I love it. And it's great to make connections with smart people. Help them out and meet law firm leaders. And it's really exciting work.

Deb Zahn: And so that is all extremely cool. There's one thing you missed, which is your blackjack background.

Scott Love: Oh, yeah. Right. Well, I'll talk about that. I can get into that because that was like a side hobby. When I was speaking...and I would speak at a lot of sales meetings and conferences and other industries. This is back in 2004, 2005. I'd be in Vegas at least once a month speaking at a sales conference. I get there a day early because you want to be fresh for the speech the next day. But I'd see all these games there and I didn't want to gamble. I had no control over the outcome. But Deb, I heard that blackjack was a game that has a memory and I read a few books on it and I actually learned how to count cards. And have you ever played blackjack before?

Deb Zahn: Not well, no.

Scott Love: Well, if you play perfect basic strategy, which is what's the recommended way to play, you still have a mathematical disadvantage over house. And so I learned how to count cards, and I got really good at that. And then I actually reached out to two of the alumni of the MIT blackjack team. If you've ever read the Ben Mezrich book Bringing Down the House or seen the movie 21, that's what the book and the movie was based on. This team where they would work as a team and they would go to Vegas every weekend.

And the thing I liked about this was that you're gaining a mathematical advantage over the house because there's a defect in the game. And if you understand the ratios between high-value cards and low-value cards, and if you understand all the math behind that, and it's not advanced math, it's basic math. Addition. Subtraction. Division. Multiplication. That's it. And if you can keep up with that, then you can gain an advantage over the house.

So, two of the guys that were on the MIT blackjack team, they mentored me for about a year and a half. It was like a side business. And then I just got to where I don't like doing math equations in smoky environments for eight hours at a time with people I would never choose to intentionally associate with and got out of that. I play low-stakes poker games and tournaments and poker and keep it for fun.

Deb Zahn: What I love about the story is that it's not a completely separate part of your life because you took what you learned by doing that and applied it to business. And so we're going to talk about one of my favorite topics, which is how to get business and to do it in a smart, deliberate way. So let's start off. So what is it that a lot of folks aren't doing well and choices they're making about how to get business, that is just not going to work to their advantage?

Scott Love: Well, even before you get into strategy, I think it's the fundamental issue of who's it all about. And when you're talking to a prospect, it's not about you. It's about them. And I think all of us that are consultants, we've done some pretty cool things. We're quoted in major media and we have this ego that can get in the way. I know that it's something I've had to attain over the years. Then here's an example of that.

I was talking to a law firm partner earlier this afternoon, and he's somebody that's quoted in the Wall Street Journal. He's just this high-level attorney. And I told him. I said, "It's not the Scott show. It's about you. It's about your decisions. And if I can help you get to where you want to go..."And so I think that's one pitfall that a lot of people that are in the business of selling professional services is they focus on themselves. So let me tell you about us. Well, no. Ask questions. It's not about you. It's about them. So I think that's one pitfall that our people, one mistake that they make.

Deb Zahn: I think that's a great one, yeah. Because we've all...Before I was a consultant, I was on the other side where I had consultants come in and talk to me. I didn't want to hear their resume. I didn't care. I wanted my problem solved. And your resume doesn't tell me if you can solve that.

Scott Love: That's right. And it's interesting. I actually put a LinkedIn post just the other day where I said "relationships selling" doesn't work. Your client prospect doesn't need another friend. They need a solution. And when you show that you can solve the problem, then, in fact, you have earned the right to build a relationship. And you have to earn that. I think that when you look at it that way, here's a new client and you try to find some sort of connection, some sort of rapport. You try to move your way into building trust. But it's all about you focusing on helping them solve that problem. And finding out what that problem is and asking intelligent questions that show what the implications are that the problem is not solved. And then you can deliver your narrative. Starting out with your points of distinction that lead to solving that problem and communicating that in a way that speaks to them personally. Where there's an emotional context to it. That's the seminar. That's it. That's all you need.

Deb Zahn: I love it. There was so much packed into what you just said. There are so many elements in there that are, I think, absolutely critical. But let's get into, as you have this fabulous five paths of getting new business. So talk about that and how you understand why these are the right paths to go down.

Scott Love: Absolutely. And this is something, keep in mind, that's the perspective I have as a practitioner of professional services and as someone that was a management consultant in the recruiting and staffing industry professional services, where I would get really deep and I would teach these concepts. And when you truly teach something, then you apply it and you can even go farther. And so that's what I found having been a teacher of this. Having done it and then teaching people how to do it and going back to doing it. It just flows.

And so, this is what I've learned by counting cards. I'll use that metaphor to drive it forward. Is that when you're counting cards, do we keep track of high-value cards and low-value cards? And the high-value cards, they favor the player. The low-value cards stay with the house. And think of it like this, Deb. If we're at a ballroom and we're on the outside in the hotel, and we know that there's 10 men and 10 women in the ballroom. And we're not in the ballroom. We're paying attention to who's leaving. If we know that five men left and nobody else did, well, there's five men left in the room and there's 10 women still there. So it's a two-to-one ratio with females to men.

That's the same thing we're doing with a deck of cards is that the game has a memory. Meaning that if we pay attention to what happened, we know with certainty what's left over. And so, if you go to a casino where you have random re-shufflers, it nullifies your advantage. You're gambling. What's the point in doing that? And I remember the first time I was kicked out of a casino, Deb. This was at what was called the Barbary Coast, which was this blue-collar casino across from Caesar's. I was counting cards there, and I was winning. And there were two ladies sitting next to me with big hair from Texas. And it's one in the morning, I'm winning, and I open it up. I'm playing three hands now of blackjack,k and I got a tap on the shoulder. It was a pit boss.

And he said, "Sir, we'd like to ask you to refrain from playing blackjack for the rest of the evening but help yourself to craps and roulette." And I looked up at him and I said, "Why would I do that? That would be like gambling." And “OK, smarty pants, out you go.” “OK, well, I'll just go next door. I'll come back four hours later when you're out of here.” And I liked it because I'm not breaking any laws. I'm not doing anything illegal or immoral. And it was a very disciplined, methodical approach. I wouldn't drink. I mean, I like to drink. But I wouldn't drink when I'm counting cards because it gives you a disadvantage. Why would you spend time on something if you have a disadvantage? Why would you just gamble?

And so the whole point, what I learned from this and the two guys that I got to know pretty well, Mike Aponte and David Urban. And I'm really grateful for the experience because I reached out to them and I said, "I know you have a business, and I'm a consultant. And I have an idea. I'm counting cards as a hobby, and I want to get better at this. How about if I consult you on client development, you help me with my game, and we don't charge each other." So for a year and a half, I fly out and spend a day consulting. We'd spend the night going counting cards. We do that for usually two days at a time. I keep in touch with them.

And I remember telling them the first time I got kicked out. It was like this badge of honor. You finally got busted. And so, it was a very disciplined approach. I counted cards in 26 casinos. Just in Las Vegas alone. And I would always know which ones to go to. I would usually go to the built-in, what was called the Hilton because they had young inexperienced dealers. And I could usually talk them into putting the cut card further back.

And so what you're looking for is Deb, in a shoe where they have the six different decks, sometimes they'll have four decks or two decks. Sometimes they'll have just a single deck. But ideally, your greatest advantage is to go to those casinos that have a six-pack shoe and, well, how can you keep track where you just keep track of the ratios and by practicing. You train your mind how to keep track of what the ratios are after all the cards are out. Then you remember that number.

So, not going into too many details, but the high-value cards favor the player. And low-value cards favor the house. Over time, you gain a mathematical advantage. So the whole point is don't put your money on the felt unless you have an advantage. So when the count would go negative, I would sit out and I'd say, "I'm just going to take a break. I think the dealer's luck is about ready to change. I'm just going to take a break." And it was so funny, people next to you are like, "Man, you're going to change the luck, dude. Why are you sitting out? You're going to mess it all up."

And then the count would come in. And then you got in proportion to your advantage. So it's game theory. Don't put money in areas that have a low likelihood of a favorable outcome. When the count is high, would that and proportion to your advantage?

So the exact same thing we're doing with client development, when I started really studying business development to where I was teaching that to other people. I said, there's got to be a formula out there that shows us where those opportunities are, that are the richest. And that's where we want to spend our time. So if you look at five different paths…there are only five different ways you can get business. The path that has the highest likelihood is, number one: Existing clients. Those are people that have paid you money. Those are people that have welcomed you with open arms to their projects. And they have the highest likelihood of giving you more business. Makes sense?

Deb Zahn: That's right.

Scott Love: And so, the second highest likelihood are those people that actually know you. These are clients. Prospects. People that are VPs and above. Decision-makers. Economic buyers. People that you've met. Or people that you've talked to. Maybe you sit on the same board. Maybe you've seen them at conferences. This is another reason why you want to build your brand. You're going to be on panels. You want to be someone that gets to mingle when you go to conferences or virtual conferences, however it is, and build those connections.

And here's a tip. Every time you talk to someone and you send them a LinkedIn request, it shouldn't be, "By the way, I'd like to get a few minutes of your time and sell you something." That will come later. What you want to do is plant those seeds and you want to put as many people on path number two. Path number one, existing clients. Path number two, people that know. That's the second highest likelihood of getting business. Those people that I've mentioned. The third path, those are people that, and you probably can guess this one, it's referrals.

Deb Zahn: That's right.

Scott Love: And you know that when you get a referral, you're borrowing trust from somebody else. I could say you and I have a common friend and she spoke highly of you and suggested I reach out to you and make an introduction. "Oh, come on over. You want some orange juice?"

Deb Zahn: That's right.

Scott Love: I don't know that I might've only known you for 10 minutes. You were just the previous person on my list of 37 that said, "I should call you." And so, that's the third highest likelihood because you're borrowing that trust. And then the fourth path, the beginning of business. Those are people that have heard of another reason to be visible. To get some visibility so that people can say, “I've heard of you.” Or, “I've heard of your company.” They've heard of your firm before. And then the fifth path, that's the path that has the least likelihood of getting business. And you can guess it. It's cold.

Deb Zahn: Oh, yeah.

Scott Love: And so, when you write those down, I always say, draw a line in between number four and number five. And you want to stay above path number five, the cold avenue. And here's my next question. Where do you think most people in the business development role spend most of their time getting business?

Deb Zahn: In the freezer.

Scott Love: In the area that has the least likelihood of getting your favorite outcome. And when I explain it to people...so sometimes I'll speak at conferences and I'm not telling things to people that they don't know. I'm just giving it to them in a way that makes sense. And it really challenges preconceived premises. I spoke last week to the legal marketing association. One of their chapters…and I presented the exact same concept that it's just like, you would think that it's revolutionary. And it is. But it's something that we all know to be true because we've been there. We've done that. We got the t-shirt. We know it. But now we know that there's a reason why. And here is a path. You start with number one, who are those people that you've already worked with. And number two, who are those people that you know. And number three, getting referrals. And so on and so forth.

And so the key when you're out there networking is to try not to get many people into becoming a client, but get them into category number two. And you'll have time to sell them later. And when you're doing your outbound sales calls, if that's appropriate for whatever type of consulting practice you have, then you want to focus on category two. People that know you. Or category three, referrals. So that's why I think it takes the pressure off. When you make connections with people, you're just trying to put them in category two and there's no pressure meeting a new friend. Making a new acquaintance. There's no pressure with that right?

Deb Zahn: I love that. And I have a similar approach, which I love about category two is what I've said to other consultants when they're like, "Who should I reach out with?" And I make them segment their market as well. And I basically say category two, could you get a meeting with them because they know you? Are they going to say yes, if you actually reach out and take your phone call? So practically, you go where the open door is.

Scott Love: That's right.

Deb Zahn: You don't go where the door is nailed shut and boarded up, and you’ve got to bring your tools to actually get it open.

Scott Love: Absolutely right. It's all about expanding resources in areas that have the highest likelihood of bearing fruit.

Deb Zahn: I love that. Now, obviously, with your categories, the goal is not just to work people within categories, but get folks to move up to be in a higher category. So how do you suggest that consultants reassess on an ongoing basis so that they're clear at any given moment who they should be reaching out to and how people switch categories?

Scott Love: I would say three different answers I would have with that. One of them is on a regular basis. Annually. Or monthly is always good. And this is something I'm starting to think about as the year is ending. Looking at the next year. Having a regular review. I think that the philosophy that I've always taught is more, better, and all. You want to get more business. Better business. And all the businesses. You want to get more business, so now you can pick and choose because sometimes you outgrow certain clients.

Sometimes you have a client that is just not a good fit anymore. And now you can replace them with better business. Maybe that's a company that's paying you higher margins. Maybe they pay you on time, better. Maybe they seek out your opinions more than some of your other clients. And then eventually, you want to get to the point that you get all the business from that organization, or if it's a large company, you're the first one that they think of.

So I think number one on a regular basis to always, maybe not always, but on a regular basis annually, at least review your business that you have and what changes you need to make. I think, secondly, when you have an inflection point in the life cycle of your practice, such as when something happens, you lose a contract. That's a time that it's good to reassess. Is there something that I did that caused that to happen? And what type of clients do I need to get to replace them?

 And I think number three, to always be assessing what you need to do to improve in terms of clients at all. And one thing I've done, Deb, every day, I document two things. I document what was my greatest achievement for the day and what was the biggest lesson that I learned. And I keep an Excel spreadsheet that at the end of the day, and I've been doing this for over three years. I'll write down what was one thing that I did really well. I was able to get that...I had a really good call with one of my existing clients. This just happened yesterday. One of the best clients. I did a big merger with them last year. He and I had this really good close conversation this week. And I documented. That was my greatest cheat.

And then my lesson learned. I had some deals that just didn't close. Some things that fell apart. Then I was able to pinpoint why, and I wrote that down and my lessons learned. And so, I review that. So I'd recommend it in terms of business development to those people that are listening. It's a daily thing. You're reviewing every day. It doesn't take a lot of time. It's a habit that you get in. And I would recommend it about once every three or four weeks. You go back and you review the columns of lessons learned. And you're going to start to see patterns.

And there are certain mistakes that I've made. And by documenting that, I see that now it's a trend. And I even knew that there are certain character issues I need to work on to improve that and keep that from happening because I've got the data. And when I do my annual reviews and when I'm even spending time strategically. What do I need to end the crisis? I think that was an inflection point that really caused me and all of us to rethink. What do we really need to change when there's an inflection point in our practice? We need to re-evaluate this and assess.

So I'd say on a regular basis like annually. When there's an inflection point. Something that happens. That's a critical change. And then also on a daily basis, document. On a daily basis. What was your greatest achievement for the day? And what was your biggest lesson learned? And that gives you data that you can use. It's real.

Deb Zahn: I'd love that. One other thing I want to ask is the other point that I see consultants get into. So if they figured out the strategy for getting clients and they've figured out the segmentation and they figured out how to get them in the door. The second piece many of them forget about is you don't get business. Look down. Do the business. Look up and say, “No, I have an empty pipeline.” Which happens all the time. So how do you suggest that while folks have the work and they're as occupied as they want to be paying attention, going forward to what their pipeline looks like.

Scott Love: So I would say there's two areas that a consultant needs to be aware of in terms of that. One of them is every conversation you have with someone, that needs to be part of your standard operating procedures. Your reticular antenna is always up. I always look at people that I'm talking to. And don't take this the wrong way. They are not faceless widgets. They're human beings. But I'm always trying to figure out, OK, where's the business going to come from this conversation?

So, for example. Today I was talking with a partner and I told him. I said, "I don't think you should move." And he was surprised. "You're a headhunter." I'm like, "Yeah, I'm in the green-grass business." I'm telling you it's better somewhere else. But it's not better for you somewhere else. You've got it as good as it can be. I think you've got a great situation." And he's like, "Wow." He trusts me now. Because I really believe that. And I told him. I said, "When I move partners from one firm to another firm, it's not the Scott show. It's not about me. It's about helping you get what you want."

And so anyways, he's with the firm. I just haven't done any work with their top 15 firms. And I said, "If it's ever appropriate, put my name in the hat when you guys are looking at search firms to help you expand your markets. I’ve worked with DC and New York markets." Primarily, that's where their firm is focused. I said, "Can I email you my contact info?" Got his personal email. And I said, "If it's ever appropriate, please feel free to share my bio link attached with whoever it is that gets involved in law firm strategy.” And he said, "Absolutely."

So it's almost like everybody you talk to is a source for future business. You just don't know how it's going to connect. You don't ever want to turn it down in terms of, well, they can't help you get anything in terms of new business. And like I said, it's not about looking at them as a faceless tool. But that needs to be on your mind. And that might not be the time to bring it up. But you want to remember that. You want to have a way to keep in touch with them such as with podcasts. Like with my podcast.

Deb Zahn: The other thing I love about that example is you were clearly playing the long game. And that's, again, what I see a lot of consultants who are new play the short game. Which is, "Oh my God. I got to get business in the door." Which means you would have looked out for yourself rather than looked out for his best interest. But looking out for someone's best interest and having them see that and feel it and experience it is the long game. And that's what successful businesses are based on.

 

Scott Love: Yeah, you're absolutely right there.

Deb Zahn: I love that. So is there anything, if you're in front of a consultant and they're new and they get what you're saying to them, is there anything you would say don't ever do this?

Scott Love: Don't ever sell without knowing what their buying motives are. Whenever I make a presentation...here's an example. I had this one firm. I got to know some leaders and they said, "The chairman is coming to town and he wants to meet with you." And I'm getting really excited. He wants to meet with me. And so we have a meeting set up. I'm in their waiting room and their director of human resources was there. And she came out to bring me back in. And as we were walking in to meet the chairman, she says, "By the way, you've only got 30 minutes." "Why would he only give me 30 minutes? It's such an important meeting talking about strategy." "Oh, it's a shootout. There’s other people after the 30 minutes.” So as I'm looking at him. I'm realizing that I'm just not as pretty as I was before because he's talking about people after me.

And so, he didn't know much about me except a little bit. And I didn't know much about him except for what I've read and what one of my primary advocates told me about him. But I walk in there and when I make my presentations, I have a pen and a blank legal pad. And those are my marketing materials. And the first question I asked him was this, "Let's say, we're looking three years down the road. What is it that you want to accomplish here in the Washington office?" And he told me the vision. He gave it to me clearly. The next question I asked him was this. I said, "By achieving that goal, how will that impact your legacy?"

Deb Zahn: Great question.

Scott Love: Yeah. Every single executive that's chairman or CEO, that's on their mind. How would that impact your legacy? And he told me. The third question I asked him, I said, "What's the criteria of a search firm you would choose to partner with that will help you reach that goal?" And he told me. He said, "We want to get people in front of us that normally wouldn't consider us." And then I knew exactly what the answers to the test were, Deb. Don't present. If he said, "I want to find a firm that understands local market knowledge, I'd be talking about different things." And so when he told me what the answers were to those questions, I tailored my presentation based on what was important to him.

And one of the advantages I had coming into legal placement, Deb, is that I didn't know anything about legal placement. I knew recruiting and other industries. So when I was coming into it, I just didn't know a lot. So I was asking a lot of questions. What I found was that the quality of the questions I asked, they made their decisions based on my competence. Based on those questions.

Deb Zahn: Because you're demonstrating value and knowledge by the questions you ask. So I would like to institute a ban on the question, “What keeps you up at night?” Worst question ever because it says, "I'm lazy. I don't know who you are and didn't bother to look." And it's generic. Everyone asks that. But I think having those questions that get to the heart and to the emotions also, which is great with the legacy questions. Because choices are as emotional as anything else.

Scott Love: What you just said. I think that's key. This is what I learned when I had my training business. When I was training people how to sell professional services was that there has to be an emotional context to this decision. When we're selling to an executive, he or she is making decisions that many times will benefit him or her personally. Not just for the company. Everybody wants to look good. Everybody's got a personal agenda. And there's an emotional context to that. And so I think that's important to be aware of that.

Deb Zahn: That's wonderful. I love that. So we could go on and on because I obviously love this talk. But let me ask you one last thing. Which is, so you do all this great work. You're still playing a little blackjack on the side. How do you bring balance to your life, however it is you define that.

Scott Love: And I actually quit playing it because I didn't like it. I haven't played it in years because I didn't enjoy it. And so, I think for me, one way I'll answer that question is that no matter what you do in life, if you want to be number one in the world, it's going to be a grind. And there are going to be days that you absolutely hate. But you have to follow the grind that you love. Some people say do what you love and the money will follow. My philosophy is follow the money so you can do what you love.

Deb Zahn: Flip it.

Scott Love: You got to have a little bit of joy in the grind and you got to be willing to know what you are willing to give up. I used to do a lot of professional speaking and I just wasn't willing to give up being away from my wife a lot. And so I decided not to do that. That's why I went into legal search. So then I can be a phone jockey and not have to be on the road all the time and still make a good living. I think that you've got to realize what is the grind part of your job and know that there's this bank account of this reservoir of energy that you have.

And I would say, look at managing energy and how do you manage that energy? What are the things that you would do to replenish that reservoir? So, for example, with the crisis hitting, everybody's working at home. I told my wife, I said, "This is an introvert's dream."

Deb Zahn: I'm here to tell you it is.

Scott Love: But now it's at the point that I go both ways. Someone said, "Are you an extrovert or an introvert?" And I said, "Well, it depends if I'm trying to sell someone something." But I get my healing by being with my family in a small group. Being at home. I'm a watercolor artist and I paint prolifically. I paint every day. Sometimes I'll wake up early in the morning and I'll paint and I'll have my desk days because I've got this creative focus in terms of art. I bring that to my business. And then I play lots of golf. Just having a physical goal that I played probably about 130 times since the crisis started. I kid you not, I counted on my teaching and got new clubs. Got new irons. Got the Mavrik irons. The Mavrik driver. Taking lessons every week because it's something that has nothing to do with work except I played with clients. But it has nothing to do with work.

And I think for people that are in consulting, you're probably competitive. Find a competitive hobby. Find something that has nothing to do with your job. And this is what Winston Churchill realized, Deb. And he wrote a book called Painting as a Pastime. And he said, "You just can't sit there and say, ‘I'm just not going to think about it’ because your mind is still going to be active." And he said, "Get your mind active on something that’s sideways from what your core focus is." And that gives you healing. And so that's why I paint. I used to do a lot of stand-up comedy because I love that. I like being on the stage. I like performing. I bring that to presentations. Even virtual presentations I've done this year with professionals. I keep it rated G in the business world.

Deb Zahn: But still funny.

Scott Love: Yeah. PG 13 in the comedy clubs. People got booze and all that, but it's just realizing that you've got to manage your energy. Find out what it is that gives you healing. I also believe that you need to focus on helping other people where there's no personal benefit to you, such as joining Rotary International. I mentor a kid in DC. We're involved in our parish. You got to find something where you're giving time, talent, energy to other people where there's no payback. There's no commission. There's no stiff. It's selfless.

And I really think when you think of selflessness, that's what's attractive. That's what attracts us to other people. And I think there's just not enough of that in the world. And that service. That servant leadership. I think that's just missing in a lot of places. Then you become that person that's going to give you healing. And you're not even going to care about how that makes you look. But then people are going to be attracted to that, which is fantastic. So that's everything I know.

Deb Zahn: That's not too shabby. I think those are fantastic answers. I liked the last one in looking for selflessness because it's healing. I know when I get really stressed out, just because the grind, maybe it's too much or other stuff's happening like COVID. And one of the first things I think is, who can I help? Let me find somebody who just needs something. And that will heal me. That will restore me. That will do. And expect nothing in return.

Scott Love: It's so funny you say that. I did a presentation two weeks ago for a sales group on building resilience muscles because there's a lot of adversity in rejection. And now, add on the crisis to them. And one of those tools, and what I try to do in my own life is habits and rituals. Having an automatic response. I've got this mantra. This series of mantra phrases. I tell myself each morning when I make the bed, I've got these rituals. And one of those in terms of building resilience muscles is doing that service work. Going out of your way to help someone. You learn this, like in the Scouts. Do a good turn game. It becomes a habit. I think that builds that joy. It builds that reservoir in your soul. And that gives you the strength to withstand anything.

Deb Zahn: I just love that. Scott, you have the perfect last name, I've decided. That's just wonderful. Thank you so much for joining me on the show and particularly, I mean, all the knowledge that you shared. But also ending it with something that I agree, the world needs more of. I appreciate that you're putting that out there for everyone.

Scott Love: Thank you, Deb.

Deb Zahn: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Craft of Consulting Podcast. I want to ask you to do actually three things. If you enjoyed this episode or if you've enjoyed any of my other ones, hit subscribe. I got a lot of other great guests that are coming up and a lot of other great content and I don't want you to miss anything. But the other two things that I'm going to ask you to do is, one is, if you have any comments, so if you have any suggestions or any kind of feedback that will help make this podcast more helpful to more listeners, please include those.

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