Deb Zahn: I want to welcome you to this episode of the Craft of Consulting podcast. My guest today is Laura Wright and she is an expert in sales and this is what she teaches other people to do. Obviously really important to consultants because that is how you get business. And she shares a lot of insider tips and techniques and strategies for how to get comfortable with sales and how ultimately to be able to sell what you do to a client so that you can get business. She even very generously shares with us a five-step process that she uses to get more yeses and get more business. So much is packed into this episode. I'm really excited to share it with you. Let's get started.

I want to welcome my guest today, Laura Wright. Laura, welcome to the show.

Laura Wright: Thank you so much, Deb.

Deb Zahn: So let's start off. Tell my listeners what you do.

Laura Wright: So my name is Laura Wright and I am a sales coach and consultant for multi-six and seven figure women business owners. And what I do is I help you create magnetic offers and sell with heart and soul and create the massive impact you want to make, but also most importantly, the massive income you want to make. And we do this all in a way that is totally matched to you.

Deb Zahn: That's great. I love that. Now, obviously that matters tremendously for consultants, which is why I'm so delighted to have you on. Now, I actually want to start with your story, because you had a business in 2008 and as everybody will recall, that's when there was a massive market crash. And I think your story is really relevant to what's happening today as we're in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic. So we'll dig into the details of some of the specifics of what you did, but tell folks what happened to you during that time.

Laura Wright: Absolutely. So interestingly enough, I had actually gone through 9/11 first, and I was working in the events industry and literally that industry evaporated overnight, and my biggest client was supposed to have an event on October 11th, and we had to shut everything down. So I went through that once and leaving that I built my real estate investment empire. I was running a seven-figure real estate investment company and then 2008 happened and everything imploded, exploded. The amount of debt I had was over $550,000. You name how bad it was; it was that bad.

But the thing that I did when I came out of that was I decided and claimed and made a decision to rebuild myself with strengths that actually couldn't be shaken ever again. I like to say I made myself unf*ckwithable. And that’s the thing, I want to help other women, and especially consultants and coaches and those of us who might be on the light worker scale. Even though we are in graphic design or web design or strategic implementation for big corporations, those of us who want to help the world, I want to show you how to do that from a place of being able to never feel the shake ever again.

Deb Zahn: Yeah. And that's powerful because I think that gives people hope right now. So you had to face the situation. You had to make choices in a difficult time. You had to get stuff done, and you had to figure out how to be successful again. What were a couple of the keys to that? What enabled you to do that?

Laura Wright: Yeah, so number one is I hit the bottom and I think that's really important because I was running my business in a way that was by the rules, super smart. I did everything great. And then circumstances really beyond my control were what happened in 2008 with the crash. And for the longest time I was pretending like it wasn't happening and some people call it that dark night of the soul. I call it accidentally locking myself out of our house when it was raining in the winter with a light jacket on, balling.

Deb Zahn: That's right.

Laura Wright: I sat down with my then-boyfriend, now husband, and I came clean and told him what was going on. And years later he told me, "Oh, honey, I knew how bad it was. I was waiting for you to come to me." But what I want you to hear is what was happening is in the background: I was shouldering the panic and pain. I could feel everything was falling apart. I knew I was hemorrhaging like $9,000 a month. I was foreclosing on properties. Everything was terrible. But I was vacillating from ignoring it and pretending like everything was OK. And I remember that day when—I just got chills as I said it—when I actually acknowledged what happened. It's this thing we talk about where if you were in a pool and you start sinking, if you go all the way to the bottom, it's actually really easy to push off the bottom and jump up. I hit the bottom, acknowledged where I was, and then I was able to push myself back up. So I think the biggest thing I did was acknowledge what was going on. I took personal responsibility. I decided to make a change. I also started following my intuition because I had done that before and I kind of got off track. And I had a little opportunity that showed up that was going to make me $400 a month.

And it didn't even begin to cover our grocery bill, but there was something in there. It was a little inkling of hope, and I knew I needed to say yes to this. So I started saying yes and following my intuition. I actually went and got myself a coach because as somebody who, I was not just running my real estate empire, I was actually starting to coach and train other women how to invest in real estate, how to change their mindset, how to create wealth. And I realized I didn't know what to do in this, and if I could have somebody who's already gone through it, they can help me. So what I want you to hear is I invested in a coach even when I did not have the ability to pay. I took full faith-forward steps, like leapt beyond belief. I was also very supported by my then-boyfriend, now husband. We are still married happily for 20 years. But I relied on the people around me as opposed to have hid in shame.

And I will say this is the other thing that I did, I think that was critical. Because of the amount of debt I was in, I made a decision not to do bankruptcy. I always go back and forth in my brain and I remember a long time ago I had this brilliant mentor who we were in this elevator with probably, I don't know, seven- or eight-, seven-figure women and somehow the topic of bankruptcy came up and they're all like, "Raise your hands if you've ever failed and had to file bankruptcy," and they all did. And it was so powerful for me because I realized that when you do big things, you can sometimes fall big. But I also realize they were all standing there on the other side of the rise. And so I kept mentors around me. I continued to pay down my debt instead of doing the bankruptcy, but I still think it was a good fit because I learned how to do things.

But then I also started to look at what was I really, really fantastic at and that was when my business that is now so beautiful and thriving was born. Understanding that my innate sales skills and how I could help other people sell was my super power. I started to build a business around skill versus any outside force. And those actions really kept me going.

And there's one more, and I realize this isn't exactly in order, but this was a really, really big one. I kept investing in myself while I paid down my debt. We actually even moved from our house into a dream home, which expanded our budget of how much we needed to put out. I continued to go on vacations, I continued to live my life, and it took me about six years to pay all the debt off. But I know what happens with a lot of really beautiful, brilliant consultants and coaches and women. We get to this place where we think we have to completely clear the debt before we're allowed to move our lives forward. And what I chose to do differently was to build a new business, move my life forward while I cleaned up my past. And that was a game changer.

Deb Zahn: That's great. I love that. And so your specialty, when you figured out what your particular magic is, your superpower was sales. And that's another reason I was so excited to talk to you. Because, as I've worked with a lot of professionals who know things and have done really good things and now they're going to be a consultant, that is the single biggest hurdle I've heard from everybody is because they'd been sold to and they felt the ick factor and the inauthenticity or there's all these I cant's that are going around their head in terms of being able to do it. So why does sales have such a bad rap?

Laura Wright: Yes. Oh my God. OK, so do you have 17 hours? I should do the whole…

Deb Zahn: For that? Yes.

Laura Wright: So here's what I know. A lot of the techniques that are taught for sales are based on masculine scarcity and mindset techniques. And I want to be clear, when I say masculine and feminine, I don't mean bash men, yay women. I just mean the concepts and the constructs. I think about the word “pitching.” You're throwing at somebody. That doesn't feel good. I use words like “invitation.” So schiestery, sleazy, any of those slimy things you know about sales, why they're taught is because they're fast to do. If you think about how you can command the room or take over someone, fear is the most powerful force. So this is why guns work and violence works is because people can become afraid and stop. So fear-based selling is what's taught because it is themed as the fastest, most effective.

What I actually understand is it's not. When you sell with heart, connection, love and you understand proper sales techniques, everything starts to work. Because I think the opposite side of that sleazy masculine side of selling, the high-pressure external pressure stuff, is the other side of the light worker completely feminine, let's just feel and hope it works and there is a perfect blend in the middle where you understand sales structure like the architecture of a sales call.

You understand buyer psychology and you frame it with love and connection. You can't help but have somebody go to a place of yes. And what I understand also is sales is not something you do to someone. Sales is transformation and service. When I do a sales call, I know that someone is walking away from the call with higher clarity, better understanding, and their way to move forward. Whether they move forward with me or into a different direction, that's what makes sense for them and for me. But I see sales as service and transformation because if you're not selling, the person on the other side can't actually get the transformation. I always like to say, if you've ever heard somebody, a friend will come to you and ask for advice and you give them great advice and then they go off and they do something else.

And you were like, "Why did that happen? I just told them what to do." I mean, this happens all the time. What it's really about is there wasn't an energetic and physical transaction with the money and the energy exchange. So they actually couldn't receive your information because they didn't buy in for it. And I don't just mean money buy in. Yeah. Money is the language of commitment and when you use that, it's so effective. So I know that when I was, back in the day, in corporate, I sat next to this beautiful, beautiful blonde woman who was amazing. She would come in early, she would hit the decks and just call people, call people, call people. She was all about the numbers, the volume of calls. No was not a no, it was a not now kind of attitude. And she worked through lunch, she stayed late.

And this will tell you why I'm unemployable. I showed up late. I would go get a bagel and a coffee, talk with my coworkers, maybe get to the meeting on time, maybe not. I would open up my list of contacts and I would just intuitively see who did I want to go talk to? And I would call one person and I would talk with them and I knew their families, I knew what was going on in their life. I would create a genuine human connection and they would buy a $25 or $30,000 or $4 million, whatever the thing was I was selling, and then I'd go for a long lunch and sometimes I'd do it again in the afternoon and sometimes I wouldn't. And that's what I started to understand what was different is what she was doing was what is traditionally taught, which is sales is about the numbers.

Sales is not about numbers, it's about connection. What I teach my clients is I don't want you to have 20,000 sales calls. I want you to talk to one or two people and close one or two people and that's the big difference there.

Deb Zahn: That's great. I love that. I actually have a course for consultants coming out on getting clients later this year. And one of the things I tell people is think of it as you want to help somebody and picture that person in your mind. Think about what their day is like. You can easily do that because you probably were that person in your previous life. And then all sales is, is removing any obstacle between you and getting to them so you can help them. And if you think of it that way, which is very in tune with what you're saying, it gets easier because now you're past the ick factor because you know exactly it's about connection and desire to serve. And that's beautiful.

Laura Wright: Abso-freaking-lutely. And if you stay in that lane, it stays easier. Also I believe in taking a stand for my clients. I know that this concept of objection shows up a lot, and I actually very rarely even have them on my calls anymore because one thing I want you to look at is the objections you see and hear on sales calls are usually objections that you've either given yourself or that you are afraid of hearing. And when you can overcome your own objections, it's so much easier to walk someone else through. But, more importantly, is I want people to remember why objections show up. It's the same thing about giving free advice to your friends, they don't take them.

When you get on a sales conversation and you tell somebody, "Look, it can be bigger, better, beautiful, amazing on this side. I'm going to get you out of your struggle. I'm going to get you to your vision." You're like, "Why would they object to that?" The thing is change is fearful for humans. When you understand how the ego works, how our psychology shows up, we don't see change as I'm going to go become something good. Our physical bodies feel any sort of change as danger, danger, scared. So I know that's going to happen and I equip myself, my clients, my client's sales teams to know what's going to show up so we can help walk the person through it. And I want you to give those words, help walk the person through resistance. I'm not trying to beat them down, pull them over the threshold, close the sale.

Deb Zahn: Yeah, exactly. And if you set the relationship up that way from the beginning, even if you get that yes, I've rarely seen people get multiple yeses after that. And I've had clients for seven years because we built a real connection. They know I care about them, and they know I care about them no matter what.

Laura Wright: That's it.

Deb Zahn: So yeah, I don't have sales calls. I have “how can I help you” calls. That's wonderful. Now, there are several things, and you have a wonderful book, which we'll talk about at the end, but several things that you talked about that can get in people's way. And I know one in particular for women is politeness, it feels impolite to sell. Talk a little bit about how you help people push past that.

Laura Wright: Yeah. OK. So I think the most loving and kind thing you can possibly do is invite someone to work with you. And here's why. If you were a doctor and you were standing on the side of the street and you saw someone walk around with a visibly broken arm, this is gross, but bones through the flesh, broken arm, you would probably run over to them and help them bandage up their arm enough to get them to a hospital. If it wasn't you to take care of them, it would be someone else, but you would help them, right?

Deb Zahn: Oh, yeah.

Laura Wright: This is what sales is. People come to you because there is something going on that is the equivalent of a broken bone in their life, in their business, in whatever is happening. There is something that is not working the way it should work or there's a future thing that they want and they don't know how to build the bridge to get there.

So if you have someone who comes to you and you have an opportunity to actually mend to their broken bone or build that bridge for them, think that's actually how selfish that is to not make the invitation. I also always think about, there's a woman who came to me quite a few years back and I didn't know how dire her situation was at the time. I knew that she scraped up some money to buy one of my little programs so we could help her get going. She had made barely $22,000 in the year before we started working together and in four weeks we created $27,000 for her.

She now has a thriving, I think we hit 350 last year for her business and it'll continue to grow. But what I didn't know was I helped her with this live event that I love helping my clients with where we sell from the stage and she then spoke on the stage and talked about how I actually saved her life and I did not understand actually how that...She was not just in a give-up place with her business, she was in a giving up place.

And I think had I gotten on the call with her and had a fluffy, light sales conversation or benefits afraid to say, "How would you like to get started? Or here's the way I can help you." If I had been afraid, I don't know what would've happened to her and I think about her a lot when I'm on sales calls and I need to gather my strength because ladies, men, everybody, our strength comes when we actually deliver our service and you cannot deliver your service and have the other person receive it if you do not complete the sale.

Deb Zahn: That's right.

Laura Wright: There is not service and sales, sales and service goes together.

Deb Zahn: That's right and you have a chance to end suffering for God's sake, go do it. One of the other things you talked about in your book, which I liked quite a bit, is the importance of excellence, which is near and dear to my heart. Because I always tell people like, "Don't just hang up a shingle and do whatever because you looked at a few YouTube videos, you got to really be excellent at what you do," but you also differentiate not clinging to perfectionism. So where's the sweet spot that you are trying to push yourself in some crazy perfectionist direction, but you really are holding that excellence?

Laura Wright: That is an excellent question. OK. And thank you. I can tell you read my book, making me feel full in my heart. So I want people to actually digest it. So the difference between not letting perfectionism get you stuck and staying in excellence. So I'll almost look at it as inside and outside. So excellence is the work you deliver with and for your clients, being excellent at your craft. And I believe that excellence is mastery. You can't be masterful if you're not doing it. So master what you're good at. And continue to build, and here's a great example and I use real estate as an example a lot. You might be a master at pouring a foundation, so just teach people how to pour the foundations. Once you learn how to pour the foundation, practice putting up the first story in the second story and then while you're practicing that, then you can teach the rest but do not go teach how to build a house if you do not know how to do it.

So the excellence really stays in your craft and delivery. The perfectionism side, what I really see is how you promote yourself, how you put yourself out. And I think what people do is they hold back and they want to make sure their PDF is perfect before they share it. They want to make sure that their course is magnificent and beautiful. I always like to share, I have a sales course that I sell that we're in year, I don't know, seven or eight of selling it. It has gone through like 12 rotations.

The first time I was like, "It's 4.97 and it's six weeks live and I'm just going to show up and teach you sales." It was great content. It was a little disorganized, but I also help the people get to the same results. Then the next time we did it I was like, "Oh, I should organize this." And I organized it a little more and then we made it more beautiful. So I moved myself past the, it has to be perfect before I produce it. But the craft of what I was delivering was excellent. Does that make any sense?

Deb Zahn: I love that. It does. Yeah. Because what I often tell people is excellence is about your client. Perfectionism is about you.

Laura Wright: Yes.

Deb Zahn: And I think that matches perfectly with what you're saying, which is. "I want to deliver excellence and quality." And it doesn't matter if that should have been a semicolon. And anybody by the way, who's ever worked with me is now laughing because they're like, "Yeah. But you totally bring up the semicolon."

So if you were giving advice in terms of someone's in front of a perspective client. What's one or two things that helps them get to a yes beyond the authentic connection, to merge what you know about people with actually trying to connect with them?

Laura Wright: Perfect. I'm actually going to tell you my very easy five steps to yes because there is an art to the sale that if you follow this on every single connection, it will turn into a decisive end of your call. It will either be a yes, or it'll be a no. And you know, no’s can be very good because taking on a misaligned client is not good.

That's right. But this formula, I always struggle if it's a formula or if it's a path, it's not rigid, but there is an order. So the very first thing that I want you to do is create connection. Connection is that know, like, and trust. And I will tell you this, the things that humans know, like and trust the most are themselves. I'm pointing back at me, I'll point at you. But you have to think about it, we like what is familiar or what feels like us.

So in that moment of connection I am trying to show we have something in common. I almost always start my calls with how are we connected? Who else do we both know? because I know there's like zero degrees of separation. I guarantee if we talk for a minute I'll find somebody that the two of us know. In fact we already have. We have something in common by knowing that people in New York-

Deb Zahn: That's right.

Laura Wright: I bet if we pulled that thread we would find somebody we knew. But when I looked at you as staying connection. And then I moved to step two, which I call listen and learn and this is finding out what their struggles are. I'm asking them what are they struggling with? Why are they struggling with it? Why does it need to change now? I need to be sure that they know their problem, their struggle and then I know it and I can solve it. And if I can't solve it, I get off that call. If I'm not the one for them, we can complete there. And this also helps me understand if they're actually ready to buy because if somebody does not know their struggle, if they are not sure why they're struggling or they don't even need to know why or how to fix it, they just need to be connected to it.

I'm not talking about digging into their pain, that's not what I'm talking about. It's about understanding what the thing is we want to solve. But the biggest question is “why now?” Why does this need to change now? And I promise you, if the person doesn't have a reason to change this now, they won't change it. And what I like to do is if somebody can't get clear on their why now I'll ask deeper. Are you OK if things stay the same way for five years or for 10 years? And here's what I want you to hear. I am not hammering the struggle or making them feel bad. I'm helping them get real with what's going on. Because it's very easy to be like, "I'm OK. I'm OK." Like I said with the hitting rock bottom moment is I need to know where I actually was so I can change it.

Deb Zahn: Right. And you're giving them an experience of what it's like to work with you.

Laura Wright: Correct.

Because if you bring light where there is darkness, that's magical. Oh, and I want you to hear this too. So for all my consultants, all my coaches, the number one thing I tell them not to do on sales calls and I realized I haven't told the whole way, but and the number one thing to not do, do not, for the love of all things good, do not ever, ever, ever, never coach or give out your coaching strategy or your consultancy strategies because it actually disempowers a sale and it doesn't actually help the person. It's almost like giving someone junk food. Now I'm not saying your work is junky, it just means that they eat it, they feel full for a minute, but it didn't nourish them and it didn't actually fuel them.

Deb Zahn: That's great.

Laura Wright: So you don't have to do that if you follow these five steps. Because helping someone get clarity on their struggle, that is transformation. I moved from my finding out what their struggle is into their vision because it is very hard to sell from a person being in struggle. So we go from the struggle to what their vision is, what they want to create. Most people go from struggle to here, "I'm going to show you how to fix it," and I don't like to do that because I want to know what they actually want. I'm the bridge that's going to move them out of their pain, into their vision. I need to know what their vision is.

And what I usually do is I insert a little testimonial in the middle.

So for all my ladies out there who want to give consultancy strategy work or they want to coach, you don't have to do that. When you simply insert a success story, what it does is it immediately positions you as expert, but it does something even better. We believe that other people can do it before we believe that we can do it. So what you just did was you said that you heard your prospect, you said, "Look, I know how to help somebody else just like you." They got to be seen, heard. Their Maslow's hierarchy of needs start to get checked off. They get to feel seen, heard. They see you as an expert and they start to believe a little bit more. So when we ask them what their vision is, what they want to create, we do the same exact thing before we go to step four, which is the invitation.

Remember I was talking about how we don't like pitch? Pitch is like throwing. I always like to give an invitation and the way

my invitation gets set up so well is when I pop in that success story again after the vision. When someone tells me they want to, for instance, have a full client roster and gather up people for a live event or a retreat or even a virtual one and so 20 spots in their high-ticket mastermind.

The moment I can give them a success story about, "Oh, you're just like Angela, my client that we just did a virtual retreat. She had 25 people attend and 12 people stepped into her $12,000 package. I just built a stronger bridge towards do you want to create this reality for yourself because I know how to?" And then when I ask, "Do you want to hear how I work with my clients?" Oh my God, people are falling over themselves and I want you to hear those words. Do you want to hear how I can help you help your clients? And then when I give that invitation, I do a game changing moment and this is, I always like to give out my best stuff because I want people to lean in and be like, "OK, now how do we do this?" Is I don't do one offer on my sales calls.

I like to set myself up for success. I like to set my clients up for success. We give three offers because this changes it from being yes or no because if you only have one offer, it's yes, I want it. No, I don't. But I give three. A VIP level. Something that is bigger, faster, brighter, longer, it's speedier, easier, whatever your VIP-ness is. Then to the midline, which is, this is how I help most of my clients. For me, this is my amplified program that it's for nine months, it's for 12 glorious women, it's a $20,000 investment. It's just a nice hearty way to master sales. And then I always have a small bite and that small bite is meant to be one little thing they can accomplish, they see how they can move forward. And then we move into step five and step five is the close.

Now this is the step that almost every person skips. They give out all their goodness and say, "Here's how you can buy from me," and then they stop. I like to make sure that I give that close invitation where I ask, "How would you like to get started?" And in the midst of that, we work through any objections that show up and I think this is a long-winded way to answer, but here's what I want you to hear. I get on every single call I have and I follow these five steps. I spend different amounts of time in each one. But when I do that, I actually know what my result is at the end of a call.

I know exactly, if I talk with five people, I can guarantee I'm going to close probably four out of those five. But even if I don't close that many, if I knew I closed four out of five and I want eight people in a program, I'm going to go talk to 10 people. That rock-solid confidence, let's not set any sales goal and actually attain it.

Deb Zahn: Wow. I love that. And I mean, the process is familiar to me, but it does work because again, and throughout the whole thing, if you weave together the connection, it's even more powerful. So very quickly because I know you have to go soon. Tell us about your book, which I know because I read it, loved it, but tell folks about it.

Laura Wright: Thank you so much. So my book is No Woman Down, and you can find it on the URL. I know it'll be in the show notes. What this is all about is what I felt for many years was that I had fell down a lot because I'm an entrepreneur. I try and I fail. I remember my husband saying to me, I don't ever see you falling down. I see how you get back up again. And so actually our sweet little son is the one who came up with the words no woman down. And what it actually really means is it's my mission to help really smart, powerful women sell with ease. And so the entire book is little golden nuggets. It's exactly the things that I did that took myself out of after 9/11, not having a job after 2008, losing my entire business.

These are actionable steps. There's 51 of them. They're very short and sweet, just like me, I'm like five foot, one. And what I do with each of them is I give you an actionable tool that helps your mindset, your money, and your sales so that you can go take action to create more wealth and income from a place of love that is super effective. Because my mission again, is to help women who are smart sell. Because I know what we do, we reinvigorate the world, we keep the economy going, we hire other amazing people.

Deb Zahn: That's wonderful. And I definitely loved all the nuggets, I have to say. It was a quick read, but there was a lot in it. You didn't add a lot of extra words that it didn't need. So there's a lot of great things to chew on. So let me end with this last question. So obviously, you also have a life that's important to you and how do you bring balance to your life, however you define that?

Laura Wright: Yeah, I'm so grateful for this question. So number one, five years ago we built my business so that we could retire my husband. So five years ago my husband became a stay at home dad. And why I am so incredibly grateful to that moment is we freed him and it's not a fit for everyone, but what we wanted to create was the ability for him to work or not work. So building that strong business let us do that. So right now what we do in our family, it's called the one who can does and we stay in our lane. So I am the business owner and I run my business. He is the caretaker of the home and takes care of the laundry, the food, the kid, and where we blend is all of that fun stuff. I get to be a quality mom, not a quantity mom.

I know that my kid is thriving because of it. So when I give him attention, I'm really there. What I also do is we have date nights in a lot which I freaking love because it lets us nurture a relationship while our business can thrive. So I really think you can have it all. And what I highly encourage everyone to do is decide what all looks like for me, for you. What it should be is what it should be, not what somebody else says.

Deb Zahn: That's right.

Laura Wright: We have a non-traditional household. I have a very amazingly handsome, masculine husband who is in his authority and he does our laundry and he cooks our food because he used to be a private chef.

Deb Zahn: Living the dream.

Laura Wright: I am living the dream. But what I really want everyone to hear is that we decided to redefine what being a husband, being a wife, being a mom, being a father, what all of those meant, and we do it our way. So don't be afraid to throw off the shackles of what everybody else says and redefine for yourself what you need.

Deb Zahn: I love it. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. This was wonderful.

Laura Wright: Thank you so much for having me. This is wonderful. This is one of my favorite parts of my business.

Deb Zahn: Oh good. Wonderful. Well, good. Thank you so much.

Laura Wright: Thank you.

Deb Zahn: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Craft of Consulting Podcast. I want to ask you to do three things. If you enjoyed this episode or any of my other podcasts, hit subscribe. I've got a lot of other great guests and content coming up, and I don't want you to miss anything.

The other two things I'm asking you to do—one is, if you have any comments, suggestions, or other feedback that will help make this podcast more helpful to more listeners, please include those in the comments section. And then the last thing is, if you've gotten something out of this, please share it. Share it with somebody you know who's a consultant or thinking about being a consultant, and make sure they also have access to all this great content and the other great content that's coming.

As always, you can get more wonderful information and tools at craftofconsulting.com. Thanks so much. I will talk to you on the next episode. Bye-bye.