Deb Zahn: Hi. I want to welcome you to this week's episode of the Craft of Consulting Podcast. Today we're going to talk about a particular framework to help clients identify and solve those really sticky, difficult problems that they have, and to be able to do it quickly. If you're able to do that, you're going to be able to offer a ton of value in your market and you're going to get hired over and over again.

So I'm going to bring in an expert. I'm talking to Trish Tagle. She has a particular framework that she uses to do exactly that. She helps clients identify and solve those really difficult problems that exist across an organization. And we're going to unpack piece by piece how she does that. Everything from how to determine when she's first talking with a client if they can actually do it and it's a fit in terms of working with her. How she gets them to believe that they can actually do this and in one day. How she prepares—so what she does ahead of time before she does that one-day session with them. Ultimately, how she's able to keep people on track and focused and working together well, and how that's all changed during COVID.

So there is so much packed into this episode of things that you can do in your consulting work, that's going to make you increasingly valuable to clients. So let's get started.

I want to welcome my guest today, Trish Tagle. Trish, welcome to the show.

Trish Tagle: Hi. How are you Deb?

Deb Zahn: Pretty good. Well, let's start off and tell my listeners what you do.

Trish Tagle: Well, basically I work with B2B organizations that sell services. And what I do is I have a one-day summit with the stakeholders. We figure out their central goal and then develop an action plan around that's prioritized eventually as we get to the end of the day, by a formula. So it takes the emotional part out of it and the formula is the objective part. And they don't have to guess which action needs to happen first, second, third, etc.

Deb Zahn: That's a beautiful thing. And we're going to dig into that because I definitely want to know more about that. But let me start to ask you, how did you even become a consultant?

Trish Tagle: My background is in digital advertising, advertising digital tech. I've been in the industry long enough to me, and I came from a background of project management and production and operations. And I felt that it was time to move on. I like working with a team. I'm a fixer, basically.

Deb Zahn: I hear you.

Trish Tagle: So I go in. I fix. I troubleshoot. And then after that, things run smoothly. And people know because I teach them what to do. Once it's running smoothly, what else is there to do?

Deb Zahn: Exactly.

Trish Tagle: Even if you get promoted, OK, maybe there's something to fix on that level. But I feel like I'm done.

Deb Zahn: Yeah.

Trish Tagle: So I said, "I like doing this, so let me do it for more than one company."

Deb Zahn: I love that. Yeah. Because here the truth is that corporations, organizations, aren't always set up this way. People like us, because I'm similar, who like to fix things or like to create, aren't the maintainers. The people you need, who are actually going to maintain things that work well. Those are two different human beings. I know which one I am.

Trish Tagle: I agree. I agree with you. I agree with you totally.

Deb Zahn: That's great. So when you first became a consultant, how did you get your first client?

Trish Tagle: Actually by referral? And the funny thing is, it didn't dawn on me that obviously, it's one way to get clients. But that's where I actually had the biggest challenge, was getting out there. I was doing these small networking groups. I'm sure you know.

Deb Zahn: Oh, yes.

Trish Tagle: Yes. And those are not for people like us.

Deb Zahn: Yeah.

Trish Tagle: But I didn't know how to get myself out there to my client. So I joined those groups, and I was a little confused at the beginning. And you think, "Oh, somebody coming from advertising would know." No, it's different when you're working within the company than when you go out on your own.

Deb Zahn: You bet.

Trish Tagle: So I was flopping around for a bit. "What am I going to do?" So my first client came through a referral, but it still didn't ping. And then after that, I started to figure out, "OK, this is my target. This is my client, and where can I find people who have the same type of client that maybe we can cross refer?" And doing podcasts is another way to do that because I'm exposing the people I interview to my audience and then I'm being exposed, when I'm being interviewed, to their audience.

Deb Zahn: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, and the referral. That's often how people get them. But you're right. We have to go to these networking groups as if that's a rite of passage. I found it more like a hazing ritual.

Trish Tagle: Oh my gosh. Yes. Yes. That's what it felt like. That's what it totally felt like.

Deb Zahn: Yeah, I'm an introvert. That's not for me.

Trish Tagle: Yes. I'm also an introvert, strangely enough. We're in this business. And I guess it feels more intimate, I suppose, what we do. Rather than that whole, like you said, that networking. "Hi. I'm so and so." And the small talk. It's very difficult.

Deb Zahn: And everybody looks worried. What I would do is, because I used to be a counselor for emotionally disturbed teenagers, is I would go to those and I would just feel bad for people. So I'd give free counseling because they were nervous and didn't know how to do it. Yeah. It is definitely not the most fun way to do it. For an extrovert, it's heaven. Go for it.

Trish Tagle: It's a party.

Deb Zahn: So what I really like, and one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you, was that you have this framework. It's very specific and it's really different than how a lot of consultants, who I think an early mistake they make is, "I'm everything to everyone." And then eventually they figure out, "No, I need to be something really good to a few folks."

But this takes that even further, which is, "This is what I do. And these are the results it achieves for you," and it's very clear and focused. And I have to say, I was very attracted to that. How did you arrive at that spot? Because not all consultants figure out that that's an option for them.

Trish Tagle: I did have a mentor and I spoke to him extensively in the beginning. And initially, what I would do was just ask questions and, "OK, this." I'm very good at seeing the big picture. I'm a very big picture person. And then he started asking me questions for me to hone it down. To really get it down to what is more a results-driven plan as opposed to something that's processed of it.

Deb Zahn: Right.

Trish Tagle: OK. So I did have a mentor. I did not ask him if I could mention him, so I'll not. And it was through that process. Just through talking. Because he basically drew out from me how do I work with my teams? And I always started with the end result in mind, as opposed to, "Let's just slap this application on top of people and it will fix everything."

Deb Zahn: That's great. I love that. And I love that approach to working. I encourage all consultants to do it, however it is they do it. Always ask the question, "What are we trying to achieve? What's the result?" And then ask how you get there. And I see a lot start with, "No, I have this process and we do this thing." And it's not focused on a result. It's just focused on how they like to do things. So I love that.

So you described it a bit, but I do want to unpack it because I think it is so interesting. First of all, I love that you boldly say that you're going to help them identify and solve these sticky, hard to solve problems in one day. So when you're approaching a prospective client with that, I can imagine there's a mix of hope and disbelief or whatever it is you see when you show up. How do you get prospective clients to believe that that is actually possible?

Trish Tagle: Well, obviously there's a discovery call that I have. And in that discovery call, I set expectations. Just like any project that you start off with, you have to set expectations. So I set the expectation that number one, first, I work with stakeholders only. I work with the top people because these are the people that are supposed to be driving the company and setting the vision for the company. So I only work with stakeholders. And the other expectation is that there will be someone from each department within that company. So immediately you get the buy in, right?

Deb Zahn: Right.

Trish Tagle: So like I said, there's that process...I don't really want to use that word, but…

Deb Zahn: The P word.

Trish Tagle: Yes. I've used it a lot. But like I said, actually it's the results that...I was just reversing, not using the correct term. But the result that you want is that the whole company agrees and everybody that needs their opinion heard or their idea heard from whichever department, a representative high enough to make the decisions, they need to be in there. And I also set the expectation that if you're in that room, you're not warming a seat.

Deb Zahn: Exactly.

Trish Tagle: You are participating and I will ask that person a question. Of course, I mean, it sounds a little harsh now, when I'm speaking about this to you. Because I'm just speaking about it objectively.

Deb Zahn: Sure.

Trish Tagle: When I'm in the room with the stakeholders, there's a softer approach. I mean, you have to get that intuitive feel for, "How does this person like to be approached?" I don't make a phone call to each and every stakeholder. That takes a lot of time. That's too much discovery. I speak to the point person that's assigned. And I mean, it's not always a CEO. But there's a point person that's assigned and I speak to them and I ask them, "Hey, who's going to be in the room? What department do they represent? Is there something I need to know about them, specifically?"

So I do ask those soft questions, just to make sure that when I get to the room, I can interact with them in a way that's going to bring the results quicker.

Deb Zahn: Yeah. I always ask, "Who's a champion and who's the naysayer? Who's the person that's going to throw rocks at what we're doing and why?" I want to know because their reason could be completely valid, but I want to know what it is.

So before you get into that room, I like this, you basically are making sure the right butts are in the seats.

Trish Tagle: Yes.

Deb Zahn: And that they know that they're not just there to be there, but that the expectation is everybody's going to contribute. Because that's the only way it can work.

Trish Tagle: Oh, absolutely.

Deb Zahn: What other type of prep do you do before you walk in the room to make sure that this can happen in a day?

Trish Tagle: Surprisingly, it's where I haven't come up with a problem. Where when I've walked into a room, it didn't work.

Deb Zahn: Oh, that's great.

Trish Tagle: Yeah. Now that..

Deb Zahn: Don't jinx it.

Trish Tagle: Yeah, let's knock on some wood. Yeah, so like I said, I hate to bring this into the business world because some people will roll their eyes at it, but I'm pretty intuitive with regards to people. Just by having interacted with so many through my career and in my life.

If you pay attention to people, you can tell a lot about them by just how they are. How they sit. Who are they looking at. And after a couple of questions, why would they be looking at them? You know what department they're from, obviously. They're constantly eyeing this person, this other department. Why is that?

So there's a lot with body language. There's a lot of intuitive skill that goes into this, which is why, like I said, I do my summits face-to-face, which is not optimal-

Deb Zahn: Until…

Trish Tagle: Yes. So until the time that we have a solution, yeah, there are other things I can do.

Deb Zahn: But the intuition is a soft skill. So I know a lot of people hear that and they think, "Oh, it's woo woo." What I would say is if you don't have it and it's not well developed, find something else to do as a consultant. Because you ain't going to do this well because you have to pay attention to all of those. And this is where I think as introverts, because we take in so much stimuli, we notice when someone's eyebrow goes up. We notice when they look sideways. We notice when they stiffen. And all of that is input that you have to have to get to the outcome.

Trish Tagle: Yeah, absolutely. I mean that is the issue. Just talking to, you know, how friends have had Zoom calls, but then sometimes you'll see somebody look off and then you're like, "What? OK. I know they have kids, but the husband took the kids out."

Deb Zahn: I don't hear a dog.

Trish Tagle: Yeah. So putting that into a business setting. If you have somebody and they look off, they're not looking at the camera, you can't tell who they're looking at and you just lose so much through a Zoom call. To me, Zoom calls are very, "OK, this is a status. What's the report? What's this thing?"

People who have worked together already, that's good for them. But when you're working with someone fresh, it's very difficult because I really need to see, "OK, who's sitting back? Who's looking off? What are they looking at? Why would they be doing that?" Like I said, there's a lot of body language and intuition that goes into this too.

Deb Zahn: Yeah. If I've worked with someone, I was actually just on a big Zoom call and it was with people who, luckily, I'd been in a room with before. So when someone's face just made a little prune movement, I knew she didn't like it. And I knew her well enough to make a joke and say, "OK, how much do you hate what I just said?" And we were able to get into it. But yeah, it's tough when it's a brand new group and you don't know the dynamics and you don't know the personalities and Zoom is your only input.

Trish Tagle: Yeah, absolutely.

Deb Zahn: It's possible, but…

Trish Tagle: It is. It is. But it takes the human touch, if you want to...and it takes that touch out of it. And, unfortunately, because if this is a day, I need that.

Deb Zahn: I know. I'm reminded once I was doing a day session with someone and it's a group that I knew. And one of the leaders was off to the side and he was taking the markers that we were going to use on the flip charts. And he was organizing them very precisely, which I knew isn't exactly who he was. I just went up and I said, "Are you trying to find something you can have control over?" He just started laughing. And he's like, "Oh my gosh, everything just feels out of control."

But when you're in a room, you see stuff like that. And that was helpful for me to know what his feelings were going into it, and that if he was feeling it, that there's probably other people feeling it too.

Trish Tagle: Yeah, exactly. That's when, "OK, let's break for lunch." I mean, I usually go off and look at the results that I have so far and start formulating questions for later in the day. I don't necessarily like to sit with the team, the stakeholders and "Oh, yeah." Because I'm still on the job. I need to be objective and all that. And precisely, it's right before you go off for lunch, that's when you maybe approach the person and try to dig in, just a little bit.

Maybe in certain circumstances, there was one time when this person kept looking off and I asked him, "Oh, I noticed that you seemed a little distracted today." And precisely it wasn't because he wasn't into the summit. He had some other issues going on in his personal life. And once you know that, then you can take that into consideration and then move on.

But yeah. So those are the little things that are so important. Those little things.

Deb Zahn: Exactly. Now I would imagine because you only have one day for the summit, it's critical to keep people focused. Engaged. Able to get to solutions. So I know that people like to circle around problems for affinity sometimes. So what are some of your go to techniques for keeping people on track?

Trish Tagle: Well, a lot of times when there's inevitably, always this person that likes to talk for a long time. And I would gently, like I said, initially I set the expectations, "When I ask the question, we're looking for results. We're not looking for a story." So initially, maybe I'll let them go on for a little bit, but then I'll be like, "Excuse me. I just want to remind you that we have a time limit set here," and I just kind of approach it in an adult manner, without embarrassing the person. And it's a tone of voice that you use as well. You don't, "Excuse me."

Deb Zahn: Yeah, "Dude, you're killing me!" Yeah, you can't say that out loud. You got to keep that in your head.

Trish Tagle: Yes. Yes. So it's really just the approach. And eventually after, maybe if they're talking and I pick up on what the result they're actually trying to speak about, I'll say, "Excuse me, but are you trying to say this?" Because I would have pulled it out from the story. And then it stops them and they're going, "Yes." And then I'm like, "That's great. We need more of that focus-type of answer."

So you're sort of training them as you're going along. But yeah, I try to not let them, once maybe, but after that, "We need to get to the result.” "What is the result that you have in mind?" And I keep going there. And like I said, tone of voice. Smile.

Deb Zahn: Your tone of voice, yeah. And I think you're right. Being a good conductor. I have found the opposite can be true, when we're trying to determine what the problem is. Because you can't solve it if you don't know what the actual problem is. And if you've got a bunch of type As in the room, which I'm guilty of, they just jump to solutions. But then they're all solving completely different problems because we haven't agreed to what the problem is yet.

And it's the same thing where it's, "Folks, I know you're go-getters. I know you love to solve problems. Hang on to that. We're going to need that later. Right now, we got to agree to what the problem is because you grabbed a wrench. You grabbed a hammer. You grabbed a chainsaw. I don't know what you have, but all of those things work on different problems. So let's figure that out."

And usually, especially with humor, goodness knows humor is important. You can get back there.

Trish Tagle: Absolutely. Absolutely. And also, in the discovery, a lot of times, asking the person questions when I'm on the call with them, first to see if it's a fit. And then secondly, I ask various questions and then sometimes I already know what the problem is before I get in the room. So when I get in the room with them, not that I drive them to that because then it's what I think. And this is not about what I think. This is coming from the team. But I have a general idea.

So if I hear it more than once, then it's something that I'm like, "OK, the person that I was speaking to, the point person, they knew it. They picked it up somehow. They heard it too many times and they brought it to me, not knowing that they brought it to me." Exactly. So that's another way is the discovery call is very important.

Deb Zahn: Yeah. Yeah. You'll learn a lot.

Trish Tagle: Yes.

Deb Zahn: So it shouldn't just be a pitch call, you should actually be learning things.

Trish Tagle: Yes. Yes. And like I said, that's where I find out if it's a fit, is through that call. Because if they can't really come up with answers, then they're not really paying attention to the people at work. So is this really somebody that I want to work with? Maybe I need to speak to somebody else. But then now, that's the second call. So how many calls deep do I go?

Deb Zahn: That's right. But the fit part, I think is so critical. Because what you want to do with organizations is ambitious and it won't work with everybody. And that's why the fit call is so important. So what are some of the other things you might hear that tell you either this isn't a fit or they might not be ready for this, or they need to do some work first?

Trish Tagle: People that are extremely scattered. Like I said, then I say, "Is there somebody else in your company that I can speak to that would address this issue?" OK. So I kind of leave a general and they'll usually pick somebody who's more straightforward. That's what I find anyway. They're not going to pick somebody who's scattered.

Deb Zahn: More scattered.

Trish Tagle: Yes. So that's one. And then the other thing that tells me that it's not a fit, is if they keep talking about the shiny new object that they want to use. "We need this application. This is going to solve everything." Is it really? So that's when I'm a little hesitant to jump in because they already think they have the solution. And we haven't even really got to the real goal. I won't really say problem, but, "What is the goal? What is the loftiest goal that you have for the company? And what are we going to do to drive to that?" So it's all results-oriented. Driving to a goal.

Deb Zahn: Yeah. Not just chasing some shiny thing that you heard about. Yeah. Well, and those are often the people that don't like any process either, right? Because they just want to ready, fire, aim.

Trish Tagle: Yeah. And what they want to do is not work. I mean, let's just be honest. They want to slap a solution on and then just sit back and let the solution run itself. Well, applications don't work that way. Applications work when people work with them.

And it's very funny. I don't know if you found this to be true, but larger companies, for some reason, have less of that, "Let's use an application," mentality than the smaller, newer companies.

Deb Zahn: Oh yeah. I think because smaller, newer companies, we all…I didn't come up in the app age. I figured it out later, but maybe they did. And they think that's what you do. But you remind me of something, which is the risk of saying yes to something that is not a fit. And I think you give a perfect example, is if they just slap an application on or they do whatever it is you're working with them on, and it doesn't work. They won't know it's because of them. They're going to point the finger at you.

Trish Tagle: Exactly. And that's the whole thing too, is does a 15-man company need an enterprise solution?

Deb Zahn: Right.

Trish Tagle: When there's a 500-man company that is using 

Excel spreadsheets. You know what I'm saying?

Deb Zahn: Right.

Trish Tagle: Like I said, maybe they're an older company and they're further away from the newfangled, like I said, shiny toy. But do you really need that expensive application for what you're doing?

Deb Zahn: And how do you justify that expense?

Trish Tagle: Yes, exactly.

Deb Zahn: Yeah. And you know if it doesn't work or doesn't solve problems that they didn't articulate or it's frustrating, their frustration will be with the consultant. The frustration will not be with themselves.

Trish Tagle: Yeah. People tend not to like to take the blame.

Deb Zahn: That's right. And consultants are the catchall for the blame. But that's why you have to be careful. And if you know that result is not possible, then it's better to walk away. It's better to say no to the income because consulting is a long game. And you don't want your reputation in the market to be, "Yeah. She came in and it didn't work."

Trish Tagle: Yeah.

Deb Zahn: That's not going to help you get clients.

Trish Tagle: No.You don't want that. Definitely not. Definitely not.

Deb Zahn: So I know that one of the things that is a problem that often comes up that you work with folks on, is improving client retention. So there can be a lot of attention focus on acquiring new clients, which of course takes time and energy and resources. And not enough attention spent to how do you keep the ones that you spent all that time and energy and resources getting?

And I looked at that and I thought, "Well, that's also obviously applicable to consultant who have the same thing that they should be focused on, is retaining the clients they have or doing more for them." So what advice would you give consultants for client retention?

Trish Tagle: I would say, well, obviously, deliver on what you promise.

Deb Zahn: Hell yeah.

Trish Tagle: That's number one. But I think number two is also staying in touch.

Deb Zahn: Yeah.

Trish Tagle: Not when you need the job. You need a job. You need a project. It's just, "Hey, I came across this article and I know that you're interested in this," because eventually, you get to know the people. So it doesn't even have to be an article about the industry or what they're doing or anything newfangled in that. It can be something like, maybe they're really interested in scuba diving or photography. "Hey, I came across this and I know you're really interested in this, and I thought about you." And just send it off.

Deb Zahn: I have a client who likes octopi. Octupus, octopi? She loves them.

Trish Tagle: Really?

Deb Zahn: I adore her and anytime I come across a video and I know she's got a lot on her plate right now. Anytime I come across a video, I send it to her because I know what will be a moment of joy in her day. And I don't do it to get business. I do it because I care about her, and I know she'll like it.

Trish Tagle: Yeah, exactly. So like I said, as you get to know the clients, you get to know them personally. I mean, to a certain extent. I mean, I work with a lot of men, so to me, there's a certain boundary, obviously. Business relationship boundary. But then you just send them stuff about, like I said, photography. Scuba diving. They're runners. There's so many. The gym.

Deb Zahn: Back in the day, the gym.

Trish Tagle: Yeah. True, true. How to stay fit while you're home.

Deb Zahn: That's right. How to construct a home gym out of duct tape and twine.

Trish Tagle: Yeah. How to use milk jugs? Just something. Something that might interest them based on what they're interested in.

Deb Zahn: Right. And it's the human connection. So I love your point that it's not just when you need something. Because if you only pop up when you're looking for a gig, it doesn't mean they won't hire you. Because if they think you're the best, they will. But you won't be top of mind to them in a way that has a good emotional response.

Trish Tagle: Yeah, absolutely.

Deb Zahn: So I love that. Now, is there anything other than that, that you would suggest consultants never do? Just don't do this? That you can say publicly.

Trish Tagle: Yeah, right. Well, I guess, OK. I sort of mentioned it. 

Don't cross lines that, if you have to stop and think about what you're going to do, you probably shouldn't do it. I think, like I said, I mentioned it earlier, when I said a lot of the stakeholders are men. In tech, there are a lot of men. There're more and more women now, but a lot of them are men and you have to keep that professional relationship. So if you have to stop and think about what you're going to do, don't do it.

Deb Zahn: Just don't do it. Yeah, err to the side of caution.

Trish Tagle: Yes. Absolutely.

Deb Zahn: I think it is really, really smart because you don't actually know all the contexts that may exist. You don't know if they're having personal problems at home. And that's going to be the context in which they're showing up. Yeah, it's easier to have your boundaries. Your life. What you want to do. Who you want to be. And respect that.

Trish Tagle: Exactly. Exactly.

Deb Zahn: So one other question I want to ask because I think it's so important. I always think it's important. I think, especially with COVID and everything else it is, is having balance in your life. However, it is you define that. So how do you bring balance to your life?

Trish Tagle: Well, early on, I bought this flexibility program.

Deb Zahn: Nice.

Trish Tagle: Yeah. But guess what? I haven't used it.

Deb Zahn: But it's flexible.

Trish Tagle: Yeah. But what I've found is, I mean, early on, I would wake up late honestly and go to sleep late and just sit in front of the TV because I was like, "What am I going to do?" I like to travel. I like to move. So this has not been easy. Obviously, mentally and emotionally, I've gotten used to it in a way. But what I've found is getting outside because I do have a home and a garden, and getting outside and just being outside in my garden and taking care of the roses and just doing something in nature, that helps a lot.

Deb Zahn: And you get into a different environment and you're fortunate to have your garden oasis. I have one. Mine's not filled with roses. Mine is filled with vegetables.

Trish Tagle: Yeah. I mean, I'm lucky that I have this rosebush. It does need some deadheading, which is when you cut off the dead-

Deb Zahn: Yeah, yeah.

Trish Tagle: Yeah. The spent roses. So I did have a tree fall on the storm.

Deb Zahn: Oh.

Trish Tagle: Finely chopped up, yes. And it kind of ruined my...This is my favorite rose, but I'm hoping that with my gardening skills, that it will survive.

That it will survive, and I'll see my fragrant yellow roses again next year. I'm just going to take care of it in the winter. Pour a lot of dirt over the roots and hopefully it'll keep it nice and safe and come back next year and see me.

Deb Zahn: There's a business metaphor in there somewhere, I swear. So I have corn growing outside and the storm knocked down some of the cornstalks. But I put them back up. I built some soil around it and I harvested 36 ears of corn this weekend.

Trish Tagle: Oh my gosh. That's fantastic.

Deb Zahn: Yes. Every single meal. We have to eat corn every meal.

Trish Tagle: Well, corn is not a bad thing.

Deb Zahn: Heck no. I have the happiest neighbors in the world. It's perfect. I have neighbors that aren't working and have three kids and now they've got corn and purple potatoes. They're happy as can be.

Trish Tagle: That's great.

Deb Zahn: But good for you. Yeah. But I think the metaphor fits, right?

Trish Tagle: Yeah.

Deb Zahn: Because business doesn't look like what business looked like for us. And you will be in the room again.

Trish Tagle: Yes. I will be in the room again. Yes, yes.

Deb Zahn: And in the meantime, we got what we got.

Trish Tagle: Yeah, exactly. And we have to figure out how to deal with it that's best for us.

Deb Zahn: That's right. And keep experimenting because you never know.

Trish Tagle: Yeah, exactly. And maybe one day I'll get to my flexibility program.

Deb Zahn: It could happen.

Trish Tagle: It could. It could.

Deb Zahn: Well, Trish, it has been a delight to have you on the show. You also have your own podcast. You got to plug your podcast because it's really good.

Trish Tagle: OK. Everybody can find my podcasts on Trishtagle.com/podcast. And then you can choose your favorite application to access podcasts from there. And then, oh, I'd like to say also, that I do have a download. And if you go to the site, you can register for that download. And that's an easy way to organize, without me being there. That's an easy, free way to organize the things that you need to do and prioritize them as well.

Deb Zahn: Wonderful. And I will have links to those in the show notes. So Trish, thanks again for being on the show. This was wonderful.

Trish Tagle: Thank you so much, Deb. I appreciate it.

Deb Zahn: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Craft of Consulting Podcast. I want to ask you to do actually three things. If you enjoyed this episode or if you've enjoyed any of my other ones, hit subscribe. I got a lot of other great guests that are coming up and a lot of other great content and I don't want you to miss anything.

But the other two things that I'm going to ask you to do is one is, if you have any comments, so if you have any suggestions or any kind of feedback that will help make this podcast more helpful to more listeners, please include those. And then the last thing is, again, if you've gotten something out of this, share it, share it with somebody you know, who's a consultant or thinking about being a consultant, and make sure that they also have access to all this great content and all the other great content that's going to be coming up.

So as always, you can go and get more wonderful information and tools at craftofconsulting.com. Thanks so much. I will talk to you on the next episode. Bye-bye.