Episode 145: Selling Consulting Services Without Selling—with Jacob Parks
Deb Zahn: I want to welcome you to this week's episode of the Craft of Consulting Podcast. On this episode, we're going to dig into the “S” word, which is sales. Or more specifically as my guest talks about it, making new friends and doing it a way that builds relationships that are going to help you ultimately build your business.
So I have on today, Jacob Parks. He is going to talk all about the different aspects of sales and how to do it in a way that you're not really selling, but ultimately you're still getting to the business you want to have, and working with the people you want to have and doing the work that you most want to do. So let's get started.
I want to welcome to my show today, Jacob Parks. Jacob, welcome to the show.
Jacob Parks: Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.
Deb Zahn: Well, let's start off. Tell people what you do.
Jacob Parks: I'm the president of a company called Profitable Ideas Exchange, but I think most specifically we're focused on helping expert service firms. So consulting firms, law firms, accounting firms with business development strategies. So kind of how do you go out there and win new work with customers?
Deb Zahn: So very relevant to anybody who's listening to this podcast, and we're going to hit upon a few things, but let's start with the “S” word, which is sales, which I know we're only going to say that word a few times. But obviously, that's something for not just new consultants, but consultants at any stage of their process can be uncomfortable, it can feel icky. They can be reticent to do it, but they have to in order to get business. So what's your take on sales and what do you think some of the best ways to approach that is?
Jacob Parks: Yeah, it's a great question. I often wonder if there's a better word for it than sales. I think of sales, and I think many people who are in expert service businesses think of sales as kind of like a guy at a used car dealership with a bad tie who's like trying to take advantage of you. I think that myths like I could sell a woman a ketchup Popsicle in white gloves or whatever all these things are that are so corny, they contribute to none of us wanting to be salespeople.
And I think furthermore when you're a professional, when you're a consultant, when you're a lawyer, when you're an accountant, you went to school to learn a very unique skillset. And the idea that you have to go out and kind of hawk your wares is very unappealing to many people. And so you mentioned this, but I think that we try to not put it in the context of sales, but how do we build a bridge from a certain bit of expertise to people who need that expertise? Because at the end of the day that's what we're trying to find is a mutually valuable relationship, not selling someone something they don't need.
Deb Zahn: Yeah, I love that. And so the used car salesman, I've heard that more than I've heard anything else in terms of how people think. And we've all had icky encounters with people trying to sell us things that we don't need. But you used a phrase when we talked before, which is making new friends which I just loved that sort of take on friends care about each other and they want to help each other. How do you see the process of making those new friends? What does that look like?
Jacob Parks: Yeah, so I think you're exactly right. It should be more about making new friends than it should be about selling to people. You know, in general, we all have sort of mutual interests. Like there is an affinity for CFOs and accountants. They're all focused on the same things so it's a natural connection. Just like someone you like to play golf with or someone you like to go hiking with, there is a natural connection for these people.
And I think using the language making new friends minimizes the scariness of trying to sell something. I think we often imagine ourselves going in with a pitch. And if we don't win this pitch, we're going to lose our jobs. But business development success doesn't happen in one-off events. It has way more to do with discipline than it does with anything else like presentation skills. And so making new friends gives it a context that's just lighter and more fun, which is what it should be, particularly in expert services.
Deb Zahn: Yeah, and certainly a better experience on the other side. Now, I've heard the question from people who need to sell their services and the people in their market are actually already their friends. And this nervousness about how do you talk to people who you've had lunch drinks with as friends? And now you're selling something that before that maybe they got for free. How would you handle that?
Jacob Parks: Yeah, so I think this is a little bit and I'm going to use the “S” word again, a little bit of sort of selling technique. But I think it's two things: asking questions and telling stories. I think if you ask questions of people and truly try to understand where they are in their business, with the challenges with their business, I think that's the most important step.
And then instead of telling someone, "I can fix your problem," I think it's really impactful to share a story of how you have actually fixed that problem somewhere else. Most people in businesses feel like their business is unique, but they can latch onto a story. But what they can't latch onto is like a dry deck that suggests they're going to fix your innovation process in 14 steps or something like that. They need sort of bespoke treatment and asking questions and telling stories tends to get you there.
I will also just say that when you're in that circumstance, the opportunity to introduce a colleague or a friend who doesn't necessarily benefit your business is a surefire way to build trust. If you have a friend who says, "I've got this problem in operations" and you say, "I can't help you with that, but I do know someone. Deb could actually really fix that for you. Let me introduce you to Deb." That is a really quick way to build trust with people.
Deb Zahn: Now, Jacob, it suspiciously sounds like you're suggesting this is a real relationship that you're building. Is that what you're saying?
Jacob Parks: That's right. That is what I'm saying. I hesitate to do so, but it is true. When I go out and I do work with the big four firms or really big consulting firms, I find it amazing how frequently the lead partner or the person responsible for the account has a really deep relationship with the buyer. They're hanging out on the weekends. They're going and doing things together. There is a depth that you need that is completely different than selling a car.
Deb Zahn: And that's how then the relationship over time becomes increasingly valuable because then you also get to know them better. You get to know their problems better, their hopes and dreams better. Everything is better if you actually build it like a real relationship. I love that.
And if you had to point out a couple of techniques for people to have in their pocket. So storytelling is obviously one of those. Questions is one of those. What is one of those things you teach folks when they're trying to build those relationships and make those new friends with potential clients?
Jacob Parks: I would say a couple of things. I think we're going to talk about this a little later, but one of the things is don't get over overwhelmed by telling yourself there are 50,000 people you need to reach because there aren't. If you're an expert in services, there's probably a relatively narrow group of people who have the ability to buy your services. And so I think the first and most important thing is just to decide who you want to connect with and then make a strategy about going about doing that.
Sending them something of value that looks relevant to their LinkedIn profile, introducing them to someone that you know that they want an introduction to. But I think the underlying thing that we're talking about here is that you're looking to create value in some way, shape, or form. And, by the way, it's not easy. I think after a time when you're trying to reach out to people, you need creative ways and creative documents or research to send to people because it can be hard, but I think doing so like sort of authentically and doing so in a way that drives value before asking for the sale is really, really important.
Deb Zahn: I love that. And let's actually jump back to the first thing is we were going to talk about niching down, which I know when I talk particularly to new consultants, whether they're independent or at firms it frightens people because what they hear is, "You're going to reduce this potential pool of where I get business, and right now I have zero. Why would you do that to me?"
But I know the benefits of being really clear about who you could potentially get business from, but say a little bit more about how you help people understand how to niche and then figure out what the right niche is.
Jacob Parks: Yeah. So maybe we can do a civics quiz to start. Sorry to put you on the spot here.
Deb Zahn: Uh-oh.
Jacob Parks: But I love this civics quiz. So if you're an aviation buff, we always ask who was the first person to fly across the Atlantic?
Deb Zahn: I assume it was Lindbergh, right?
Jacob Parks: It was Charles Lindbergh. You're so right. Well done.
Deb Zahn: Thank you. I mispronounced it, but I was there.
Jacob Parks: Well, sometimes I do this exercise and nobody gets it and that's quite embarrassing. And so who was the second person? Do you know?
Deb Zahn: Was it Amelia Earhart or? No, she didn't make it.
Jacob Parks: It wasn't. It was a guy called Bert Hinkler, but Bert Hinkler does not understand niching and he has been relegated to the dustbin of history because he doesn't understand niching. Now, who was the third person to fly across the Atlantic? Now it's time for Amelia Earhart. And why do we all remember Amelia Earhart? Because she understood niching and she said, "I was the first woman to fly across the Atlantic." Bert has no distinguishing characteristics at all.
And I tell this story because as people leave big consulting organizations, you're going from a shock with 200,000 people and you roll out and you try to start your own business. It's easy to say, "Well, I can do anything. We could do anything back at my old firm. I can help you literally with any business challenge that you need." And a better approach is actually to kind of shrink the pond, determine what your skillset is and literally draw a circle around the 50 or 100 people that you think are the right buyers of that service.
And go about setting a strategy to engage and communicate with those very buyers over the course of a decent period of time, it really does kind of demystify the funnel, which I am not a fan of the funnel for expert services because it doesn't actually just work like that. I like the analogy of a garden. You're planting seeds, you're watering, you're giving sunlight and the tomatoes might ripen before the lettuce or whatever, but you're always working the garden. It's where you get your source of revenue. And so you should never sort of leave something or discard it out of the funnel. So we try to encourage clients to use a garden as a methodology when they think about their own business development pipeline.
Deb Zahn: OK. So as a rabid gardener, I might have to steal that from you. I hope that's OK.
Jacob Parks: It's yours. It's all yours. I don't mind at all.
Deb Zahn: I like that. I like the idea of when I'm planning out my garden and I'm a nut about planning my garden so I have it all on software and everything. And you can think of it as my, as my food pipeline.
Jacob Parks: Right. That's exactly right.
Deb Zahn: I know exactly what ripens at what time. I know that on February 5th I’ve got to start my broccoli because our climate has changed a bit. I know all of that because I'm paying attention to what's happening in the larger environment and adapting to it. And I know when I'm getting corn versus when I'm getting cabbage.
Jacob Parks: And you know when a plant needs water versus when a plant needs less water, right?
Deb Zahn: Yeah.
Jacob Parks: So you're not going to treat everything in your garden the same. And that's the same way you should approach expert services. Some people need to be left alone for two quarters because they have a merger with what they're doing or whatever. So you treat each one as an opportunity as you were saying.
Deb Zahn: Which is the same thing you do in real relationships. So everything keeps circling back to that is you don't treat everyone in your family and in your extended scope of the relationship, exactly the same. You think about who they are. You think about their circumstances, you contextualize it within your relationship with them and you make choices. Oh, I love that. That's wonderful. The garden thing, I'm all about that.
So the niching down then also gives you clarity about what you're doing with your revenue-generating activities because I've certainly seen folks truly list out every person they've ever met in their life who's in their market. And then almost like they're going to start with whoever they wrote down first or whoever they alphabetized on the Excel spreadsheet. But if you draw a circle around those 50 people and some of whom I imagine and some of whom you don't, how do you start then even within that figuring out what to do with them?
Jacob Parks: Yeah. So I mean, obviously it is bespoke. So it's looking at each participant and saying, "How well do I know this person? Could I just get a call and talk to this person about what they're working on? Because that might be a good approach." It might be a good approach just to send thought leadership that I've done because I think it's relevant to their role. And by the way, like with LinkedIn and other kinds of social media, you can get really targeted with how you reach out to someone. You can find a connection of some kind.
We both went to Duke or whatever it is, there are connective points that are really kind of accessible now that weren't accessible a long time I'm back. But I have a friend called Riggs Kubiak who's an entrepreneur and he taught me this sort of aphorism that I think exists in this sort of startup world and I love it and he said, "Look, if you ask for money, you get advice. And if you ask for advice, you get money." And I think that that applies to consulting too, where like the right thing is just to ask them about their business to try to understand their business, to try to be proximate to help them if they need help.
But I think you keep circling back to this, but to do it in an authentic way where you're actually developing a relationship, not that you're just a vulture waiting to pounce on an opportunity. But I think asking for advice is a really good technique.
Deb Zahn: And if you act like a vulture, they can see you circling and they run for cover.
Jacob Parks: Every time. That's right.
Deb Zahn: That's wonderful. Now, obviously professional services of all kinds, including consultants don't only do sales of their services. They're also selling products and I'm a huge fan of them thinking about, are there products that actually bring value to your market that are worth doing? What are the different approaches you would use if you're selling your services versus selling products?
Jacob Parks: I think when it comes to products, it's relatively straightforward. I think of product sales as something that fits nicely into an Excel spreadsheet. So I'm talking to Deb right now on my laptop and I work from this laptop, but let's just suspend that belief for a second and say, "If I were buying this computer, I would look at it and I would probably make some spreadsheet that is a combination of the size, the speed, how good are the graphics?" And I would come to some relationship between features and benefit and the price I was willing to pay.
It's pretty straightforward how we buy products. And I think that anybody who's going to market with those should work hard to sort of define those features and benefits and how they create value for a user or a customer, I should say. Expert services I find to be, we said it at the beginning of the pod, but we almost need a separate word for how you go about selling expert services. And I think we did a little bit of academic research and I think there are like seven elements we decided that must be in place to actually sell an expert service.
But the two that matter the most are trust and credibility and those are the ones that we can work hard on. And I think there's a unique definition that we try to use for this, which is that trust is sort of like the person you would let watch your kids. You know they'll do the right thing when your back is turned. They would never sort of do anything untoward. So that's important in consulting because in many cases when someone's buying a service, their job is on the line too. Like if this project goes badly and you hired this consultant, you're out of here. So they're taking a risk by hiring you.
Credibility is something different. That is this idea that you can actually do the work. And we sell in our world something that I...Don't quote me, but I think a couple of Kellogg professors came up with this idea of a credence good, which I hadn't heard of before doing this book, but basically, like where you're responsible for diagnosing and fixing the problem. So like a mechanic is a good example. I take my 77 Ford LTD that I had in college fully rusted out in, it's got 200,000 miles on it and I take it to a mechanic and I say, "Hey, it's making a little ping."
And you know there's two answers here. One is, "Yeah, it's got 200,000 miles on it. You should drive that thing till it's over." And it'll give you a little more life. And another person might say, "You need a valve job. It's going to cost you $3,000." That's a credence good. And we're doing the same kind of selling and that tenure or that length of time of doing the right thing builds up over time, and it helps your reputation in the marketplace.
Deb Zahn: I like that in theirs and I'm sure this is what you folks have also looked at. So those two things hit neuroscience very well in terms of the trust is really your reptilian brain. Is this good or bad? OK, it's good. And then your limbic system, which says, OK, I feel good about this. You have to pass that gate in order to be able to reliably get business because if you're sending out red flags and warning bells, they might not know why they don't want to work with you, but they're not going to want to work with you. They have to have confidence you can bring the goods and you can actually do this stuff.
So that's probably more frontal cortex saying, "OK, yeah, but they can actually do this calm down." I love that combination of those two things as being at the heart of this. So when you're selling products, you still have to convince people to buy it. So you have your benefits, you have your features. And at least for some professional services, they don't often think of buying a product. They think of buying the person who's going to come in and help them with it. So what would you encourage for those who are trying to sell a product in addition to or in lieu of their services? Like how do they get clients to actually buy it?
Jacob Parks: I think a lot of my strategies tend to be similar, but I might call this like formalized storytelling. And by that, what I mean is like we are all the protagonists in our own life story. And so if you can write stories that explain how the product is used. Well, to solve a challenge, to improve a business. I think that those kinds of case studies are incredibly powerful. When trying to sell a product, because again, we're just suspicious of salespeople. So when someone comes out and says, "This CRM system is going to manage your leads so effectively," our natural instinct is to go, "Mm."
Deb Zahn: Really?
Jacob Parks: "I don't know about that." And so I think that just making the story about the product is, is perfectly ideal. Also, just like a random story from a consumer products good. I think that to the extent that you can create culture around your company or your product. So like I think Salesforce in the expert service world does a good job at this.
But like another example is like years and years and years ago, we were doing an engagement and we got to know someone from Atlas Snowshoes and they had built a community of women who were interested in snowshoeing basically. And they had gotten these different cohorts together and in places in the country where snowshoeing makes sense. And they just built a lot of culture around their brand by doing that. And I think that people should look for those opportunities. I think that's a big part of services selling, but I also think it's a huge part of product selling if your product lends itself to that type of strategy.
Deb Zahn: Yeah. And just so you know, my mom and I each have a pair.
Jacob Parks: There you go. I love it.
Deb Zahn: What you just said is accurate. But yeah, it's so that the product isn't the thing off the shelf that you hand someone and say, "Here, buy this." It still involves the story of how it gets them what they want. It still involves the sense that they're still in a relationship, but guess what? In this relationship, this thing is going to help you.
Jacob Parks: That's exactly right. And experience, like we all want experiences.
Deb Zahn: Oh, absolutely. I love that. So once someone gets their first swath of clients, they listened to everything you just said, they said, "He's right. I'm going to do that. I did it." They worked their circle of 50. They got some clients, but they know in order to have a thriving business, they have to expand beyond that. How do you help folks understand how to expand, how to start getting clients they haven't gotten before?
Jacob Parks: That's a fantastic question. Honestly, like I think this is the biggest opportunity in expert services right now. So we did a study of one company that had to be business units and basically 80% of their new revenues came from 20% of the existing customers. I think that's pretty normal kind of traditional Pareto stuff. But what was incredible to us when we did this research is that they only had 10% crossover in the clients in those two business units.
Deb Zahn: Interesting.
Jacob Parks: Which means that they were basically running two completely separate businesses and not doing any cross-selling. So you ask what people should do, but I do think it's important to just point out the considerable amount of problems there are with this. So one I think is incentives. We are incentivized if we have one client and they are producing a great deal of revenue for our firm and on some level keeping us employed in keeping our kids in college, it's hard to want to introduce that person to your partner that you've never met.
Like that just looks like risk. And it doesn't probably make sense to take on that risk. So that's a problem. And the same thing is true on the client-side. The client has a lot of political stuff going on and they may not want to introduce you for a variety of reasons. They may think of you as their secret weapon. They may not like the person in the business unit two doors down or whatever, but there are institutional barriers to sort of winning work across an organization.
So again, it's similar to what we talked about with niching, but I think it's relevant to just not try to boil the ocean and narrow it down. So you're working at a client, they have this executive community and I would literally go as far as mapping what services you might be able to do well for those clients. And then asking for introductions to those people from the client you work with. That is the most simple technique that I think that you can do. And I'll give you one more technique that I think is just fascinating that I got from an old friend of mine called Walt Shill who used to work at Accenture for a long time. And he talked a lot about utilizing change management as a business development technique.
He says, "Basically if you're doing a project of any consequence and why would you be doing a project if it's not of consequence?” You owe it to the firm to walk around and talk to people about what you're doing, how it's going to impact the business and what change they should expect to see., And then when you invariably nail that project and have a ton of success, it's your obligation to go back to those other business units and say, "This is what we did and this is this success we delivered."
So this is a little back to you're kind of asking for advice and you're going to end up getting business because you're sharing some stuff that you've done already, but it doesn't feel like a pitch.
Deb Zahn: That's right.
Jacob Parks: It feels like a conversation. So that is a technique that as your firm grows can really be put to effective use.
Deb Zahn: That's right. And that's really expanding your friendship network within an organization, which I've done and had enormous success with. And not because I was doing anything manipulative, but because those people in the other business units actually had information that was helpful to me. And then I could go back and celebrate with them because truthfully we couldn't accomplish what we accomplished without them. They now like me, they trust me. And if anything comes up, I'm going to be who they turn to.
So I know you're also really deep in the peer-to-peer network world, which I also want folks to hear about. So what did it, what is it that you folks do with that, and what are the benefits of that?
Jacob Parks: Yeah, sure. So I think as people become more senior in their roles, there is value in sort of comparing notes. So like a CFO, there is a lot of value to compare notes with other CFOs on how they're handling a variety of issues. That's something that they get value out of. And I think it's not that easy to find at a true, pure level. So on the flip side of that, we have clients who are expert service firms, and we talked about this earlier, who can draw a circle around 100 people that they want to get to know that they would like to serve.
And so this is one of those value add techniques that we just to our clients, which is rather than going out and pitching what you can do, you should build a community of executives who get together on a quarterly basis. They control the agenda and they talk about the key things they're working on in their business. Of course, as the client, you're there on a quarterly basis. You're not selling. Maybe you're telling some stories on the exchanges, sharing insights, catching up with them once a quarter on interviews to find out what they want to talk about.
But over time, what you have is a group of people who you're developing real relationships with understanding their business, and then you can go out there and work with them in a way that is unique to whatever it is they're working on. I think buyers get very frustrated when someone shows up with the like 10-step deck to operational excellence because every company's different. We all have 400 ERP systems that we're trying to integrate or whatever the problem is, people need to feel like you're investing in their business, not pitching the exact same thing.
Deb Zahn: Right. And the folks in the room I would imagine having heard from executives, they don't often have peers to talk to or people to go to. Other departments don't get it or there might be dynamics at play in the culture. CEOs often bring in consultants only because they don't have anybody else they can talk to. So imagine being able to talk to peers and the value that they would get out of that. Oh, I just love that.
Jacob Parks: I will just add as a kind of an anecdote. You have to be rigorous about value creation. It has to be time-efficient. It has to be about what they want to talk about. You can't pitch them on these calls because they vote with their feet and they do it in a hurry. And I think that COVID has brought on plenty of online kind of garbage.
As people have tried to pivot to online, there's just a lot of stuff out there that isn't very valuable. Sometimes you go to these webinars, and it's all grad students doing research for a paper. There's not an actual buyer in the room. And so you just have to be very careful to do it right is what I would say about that as well.
Deb Zahn: And is there follow-up after? And if so, what does that look like?
Jacob Parks: Yeah, there always is follow-up after, but I think the follow-up tends to be value-driven. So as an example, two of the CFOs on the call may be talking about a way that they're struggling to leverage their SAP implementation. And so I think a natural follow-up is, "Hey, we'll connect you two after this call for a half an hour call on how to sort of figure out that SAP issue."
And so the actions tend to be more generative of value than pitching, but it does give you the opportunity if you're the client to say, "I heard you talking about that, this might be the wrong time, but I've done some work like that for a client. I'd be happy to share." And then, again, you're selling in a way. I shouldn't say sell, but you're trying to work with people in a way that adds value and you're investing in them not just sort of running through a list of people you're calling to get work from.
Deb Zahn: I love it. I love it. And I will tell you as someone who has built her entire consulting career based on generosity. I know from firsthand experience how powerful it is because people will want to give you money because they want to have a reciprocal relationship with you.
Jacob Parks: That's exactly right. Generosity is a great way to describe it.
Deb Zahn: Wonderful. That's fantastic. So say a little bit about the book and then we'll talk about where folks can find you.
Jacob Parks: Yeah, you bet. So my partner Tom and I did the research for the first book. He wrote the first book. Basically, it's called How Clients Buy. And that book is about making new friends. So what are the best practices is the techniques to go out there and sort of get your first client or new logo clients, if you will? And we did that book and the market came back to us and said, "Yeah, thanks. That's interesting."
But what's really hard is actually expanding within a client once you have it. That's the problem that we have and it seems like low-hanging fruit in our business. And so we wrote the second book called Never Say Sell, which is basically a guide for strategies and techniques to expand current client relationships once you've sort of gotten your foot in the door and we've built a little model for kind of how you expand with new work, same client, new client, same work. A variety of techniques to use, but it was really fun doing the research for that one.
Deb Zahn: Wonderful. I love it. So where can folks find you?
Jacob Parks: Well, certainly on LinkedIn or our website, Profitableideas.com. Certainly, they can find us all on there.
Deb Zahn: Perfect. And I will have a link to that in the show notes. So you know my last question that's coming and particularly in the midst of a seemingly endless pandemic, how is it that you're bringing more balance to your life, however it is you define that?
Jacob Parks: Yeah. So I'll start with the definition actually because I think early in my career, I struggled with balance because it feels like balance is supposed to look like exactly eight hours of work a day and eight hours of sleep a day and no deviation from that. And I just don't think that, at least in our world, I don't think that kind of balance exists. Like I just don't think it's realistic in our roles. And so I sort of take a little bit more of a seasons approach, which is there are seasons for work and there are seasons for relaxation. And you just have to manage that a little bit on your own, which is if you're getting to a season where you feel like you've been working too much, it's like it's on us as the employees to take the time back away and get refreshed a little bit.
From a company standpoint though, we do something that I think has been incredibly impactful over the years, which is we give everybody two weeks off over the holidays in the winter. So like whatever, December 20th until January 3rd. Generally speaking in consulting and depending on the business you're in, it might be different in accounting if you're trying to close out your ends. But in our business, there is actually not much going on. There are not a lot of peer group conversations that people want to have on Christmas Eve, believe it or not.
And so we give those two weeks on off to people under this sort of tacit agreement that we all work really hard around here. And we need a chance at least once a year to take two weeks off and unplug. And most importantly, I don't know if you ever get vacation anxiety, but what's great about it is nobody's working. So for two weeks your inbox actually shuts down and you can pull back and get a break.
Sometimes I feel like I go on vacation and it's harder to come back than it was to leave because you know you're walking into 400 emails and a bunch of different things to deal with. And so this has been one of those really powerful things for our company is giving those people that time during the winter.
Deb Zahn: I love that. Yeah, because you're eliminating pent-up demand.
Jacob Parks: Exactly right.
Deb Zahn: Everybody's gone. Oh, I'd love that. Yeah, I do that. I've never been given that any place I've worked, but I naturally do that. I actually do three weeks and then I'm much more palatable when I come back in the new year.
Jacob Parks: You get new ideas too. Like your brain needs a chance to refresh. That's just how it is.
Deb Zahn: Yeah. That's wonderful. Well, Jacob, I really appreciate you coming on and we will have links to you and to the two books in the show notes so people can check that out. But thanks again so much for being a guest.
Jacob Parks: Yeah, thanks for having me. It was great to meet you, Deb. I really enjoyed it.
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