Deb Zahn: I want to welcome you to this week's episode of the Craft of Consulting Podcast. So we're going to talk about something that's really fresh for me because I just helped someone with this a couple of days ago. And that is when you first start consulting, or even after you've been doing it a while, to take a careful look at how you have defined your niche. Your niche being who you are going to market to and do outreach to in order to get business.

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And my guest today is David Shriner-Cahn and he is the host of the Going Solo and Smashing the Plateau podcasts. He and I do very similar work in terms of helping professionals become consultants and become successful consultants. So we're really going to have a good conversation about why it is so important to find that niche. How do you do it? And then once you've defined it, what do you do? What should you be spending your time on? And what are some of the things that are going to help you ultimately get business? So great episode. Let's get started.

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I'd like to welcome to my show today, David Shriner-Cahn. David, welcome to the show.

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David Shriner-Cahn: Hi Deb. Great to be here.

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Deb Zahn: So let's start off. Tell my listeners what you do.

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David Shriner-Cahn: I am an entrepreneur like you. I have been an entrepreneur for the last 14 years. And before that, I was an employee for 28 years. I've done a number of different things as an entrepreneur, primarily solo or with a small team. Right now I am a podcaster, speaker, and I help those that are trying to build their own consulting or coaching business following a late-career job loss.

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Deb Zahn: That's great. And that's why it's so perfect to have you on the show, obviously and sadly because that's happening to a lot of folks right now, given this economy. So we want to give them hope that there's things they can do. So how did you get into that? How did you make the leap from working as an employee to being an entrepreneur?

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David Shriner-Cahn: Well, the leap from employee to entrepreneur was actually somewhat simple. I had reached a plateau in my career in the job that I was in and decided that my next move was going to be to work for myself as a consultant. I had been an executive in the not-for-profit sector for more than two decades. I'd been in the same job for 18 years. And I had hired lots of consultants in my roles and thought, "Gee, wouldn't it be nice to do what they do." Even though I had a lot of flexibility in my work as an employee, a lot more than many people do as employees, I still wanted to be my own boss. So it was really that simple.

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Deb Zahn: That's great. And that's a big draw for a lot of folks. So we're going to talk about a big topic for consultants. And it's actually perfect timing. I was just helping someone with this a couple of days ago, where it's about picking a narrow enough market so that you can easily do the things that you need to do to be able to get clients and grow your business. So let's start off. Why does that matter? Why should someone consider a narrow market versus being a Jack or Jill of all trades?

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David Shriner-Cahn: Well, it seems counter-intuitive unless you spend a lot of time marketing, but the narrower your focus, the easier it is for somebody who is your ideal client to recognize herself or himself in your description of the problem you solve, if it's really narrow.

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Deb Zahn: That's right. And those clear signals in the market don't then confuse people as, "Oh, I can do anything." Which no one believes. Ever.

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David Shriner-Cahn: Right, right. So if you said to me, "David, I'm a marketing consultant." I have no idea whether you can solve my problem. But if I need to generate leads for my consulting business through my website, and you said to me, "I have a framework for developing leads for consultants using their website." I would say, "Aha, I've got to talk to Deb."

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Deb Zahn: That's right. Because the last thing anybody wants to do is hire someone and then find out they have no idea how to help them solve their particular problems.

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David Shriner-Cahn: Right. Marketing is a very broad topic.

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Deb Zahn: Exactly. And as are many things. So one of the fears that I see comes up right away anytime I've suggested this approach to folks is…as if I'm telling them to find a small box, climb inside of it and then lock yourself in. How do you calm folks to understand that this is actually a good thing, and it's not just meant as a limitation?

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David Shriner-Cahn: They actually need to be ready to do some work on their own process to figure out not only what that niche should be, but also to hear from their target market that it is something that the target market wants and is willing to pay for. So when they started hearing from people that, "Yes, I need to talk to you. You can solve my problem. Tell me where I sign up and how and how fast." That actually speaks volumes.

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Deb Zahn: That's right. And that's very calming.

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David Shriner-Cahn: Yes, it is calming.

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Deb Zahn: So dig a little bit deeper into how you suggest folks actually pick their niche. What process should they go through?

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David Shriner-Cahn: Yeah. Frankly, to a certain extent, that's my story. I started my consulting business 14 years ago. And initially I said I was a nonprofit management consultant, which is quite broad. And now when I say I help high achieving professionals build a consulting or coaching business following a late career job loss. That's pretty specific. And either you fit that profile, or you don't. And the reality is, as you mentioned in the introduction, there are a lot of people that actually fit that profile and sadly this year is growing.

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Deb Zahn: That's right. That's right. And do you suggest when folks initially pick their niche, are there steps that you suggest that they take to validate it in the market before they just develop all their marketing tools and start leaping around hoping somebody likes it?

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David Shriner-Cahn: Yeah. The last thing you should do is spend time on your administrative infrastructure and building your website before you know that somebody actually wants to buy what you're trying to sell. And I've had this conversation with many people. Especially as a consultant or coach, you need a website a lot less than you think.

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Deb Zahn: Yeah.

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David Shriner-Cahn: So don't spend a lot of time or money building a website before it's really clear on who is going to buy what you're trying to sell and that they actually will buy it. So validation is people actually giving you money. And I can talk about the process because there are some very basic steps. But they do take time. They take thought. The first one is you need to really look at yourself first. You've got to be really clear on what your goals are for your life. For your business. How your business goals fit into your life goals. First of all, I don't believe that there is such a thing as...You can't compartmentalize work and non-work. Especially for people that are in the knowledge industry. Those of us that use our knowledge as part of what we sell.

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So it's really important that you have an integrated set of goals that articulate what it is you are trying to achieve over the rest of your life. And your goals should be specific enough so you understand when you're working on them, but they should be non-measurable. They need to be broad enough so you will always be engaged and working towards them. And there will always be more to do because once you run out of things to do, you have hit a plateau. You're going to be really stuck and you're probably going to get depressed.

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Deb Zahn: That's right. Especially now.

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David Shriner-Cahn: No, quite seriously.

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Deb Zahn: Yeah. Especially now.

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David Shriner-Cahn: Always. There's the story of the first astronauts to land on the moon. Once they landed on the moon, then what? You have stories of athletes that want to achieve a certain sports objective and the ones that are really good and achieve...say you want to get a gold medal in gymnastics, right? So you get a gold medal in gymnastics. That's great. But the chances are, you're going to live many decades past the time when you achieve that gold medal in gymnastics. What are you going to do for the rest of your life? So you really need to have your goals written in a way that you can always be striving and always be excited about what you're working on. So that's step one is create some really solid goals.

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And then you need to look at yourself and look at two things. First of all, you need to know what it is that you enjoy doing the most. When it comes to work. When it comes to non-work. What is it you enjoy doing the most? And what are you most competent at doing? And look at the intersection of those two because that will tell you a lot about what you have to offer. Then you have to look at the marketplace and be really clear whom do you most love to serve? Whose problems do you want to solve? If you don't want to work with big corporations, don't try to sell to them.

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Deb Zahn: Yeah.

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David Shriner-Cahn: I have lots of colleagues that are consultants that spend a lot of time in corporate, and they can't stand the bureaucracy that goes along with companies that have thousands of employees. They love dealing with small business owners that have either no employees or at most a few dozen employees. Because you're dealing with very quick decisions and you're dealing with the decision maker all the time. So there's a quick turnaround in your discussions. You don't have to go jump through all kinds of hoops to get something done. So just be clear on who you want to serve.

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And then the market research part is, "OK, so what problems do they have and what is it that they want to have solved? And do they have the resources to pay for getting those problems solved and are they willing to pay for it?" And unless you put all those pieces together, you're going to have a hard time finding your niche. So you've got to be really clear with yourself. What is it you have to offer? What is it you want to offer? Who do you want to serve? What problems do they have? And not only do they have the problem, do they recognize they have the problem? Do they want to solve the problem? And do they want to pay for it?

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Deb Zahn: Yeah. And I think that last piece is the piece that I've seen gets missed quite a bit, which is recognizing there's a difference between need and demand. We can look at an organization or company and see that they may desperately need something, but if they haven't recognized it, embraced it, and now they're willing to pay someone to help them solve it, then you don't really have true market demand. And I've seen consultants run around. And instead of trying to convince people to hire them, they're trying to convince them that that's a problem they should pay to solve.

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David Shriner-Cahn: Exactly. Like in my marketplace, I know people that do excellent work. They're high-achieving professionals. They do great work for clients. They have left corporate. They're struggling to make it as a consultant or a coach. They're trying to figure out how to actually make money doing it. And when I talk to them about things they can do, they are unwilling to change anything they're doing. And even more so, they're unwilling to invest in themselves and learn what they don't know. So I can help them. I can refer them to other people who can help them. But if they're unwilling to make any change or invest in themselves, they're not going to change and they're not going to be able to make more money.

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Deb Zahn: That's right.

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David Shriner-Cahn: They need to want to get help and they need to want to pay for the help.

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Deb Zahn: Great.

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David Shriner-Cahn: And they have to have the resources to pay for the help. If they're broke, it's also not going to work.

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Deb Zahn: Yeah, that's the other piece. You don't collect IOUs, you collect actual dollars. So I like how you're combining...Actually, not artificially separating work from life, is I think the better way to say it. So one way to know if your niche and what you've decided to offer within that niche and who you've decided to pursue as clients is right, is whether or not someone hires you. But there's other things too. So you may get into something and realize, "Well, I thought I liked that, but oh my goodness, that doesn't really fit what I want for my life." So how do you suggest people pay attention to the choices they've made to see if they need to make any course corrections?

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David Shriner-Cahn: Well, you can ask yourself, first of all, "Do I have clearly articulated goals?" If not, spend some time writing them. Show what you've written to people who know you and get some feedback. "Do they make sense? Where are there some holes? Are these things that I'll be excited to spend my time doing?" Ask yourself what you most enjoy doing. See if you're currently spending time doing stuff you most enjoy doing. I ask myself that all the time and I'm always finding things I'm spending time on that I would rather not be doing. So there are solutions to that. I can either stop doing them or I can pay somebody else to do them. Or I can ask somebody else to do them for free. But unless I absolutely have to do them to put money in the bank, maybe there's some other way to get them done.

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Deb Zahn: Yeah. I love that. I used to keep an Excel spreadsheet called “I Hate This.”

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David Shriner-Cahn: Exactly. It's great.

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Deb Zahn: Anytime I was doing something that I didn't think I should be doing, I threw it on the spreadsheet. And then eventually I had a list that was reasonable enough that I hired a virtual assistant and I knew what I needed her to do on day one, rather than hire someone and then I'm trying to figure it out.

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David Shriner-Cahn: Mm-hmm. Ask yourself, what are you most competent at doing? And ask people who have experienced your work what they think you're most competent at doing. Customer feedback is really powerful. And I do this with regularity. I ask people that I've worked with what they found most valuable. And I can guess all I want, the reality is I am surprisingly often wrong about what's most valuable.

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Deb Zahn: Oh interesting.

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David Shriner-Cahn: Yes. And it has taken me many years to learn where the biggest value is and to have the confidence to charge for it.

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Deb Zahn: That's right. And not assume.

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David Shriner-Cahn: And not assume.

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Deb Zahn: Because as you said, we're often we're often wrong.

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David Shriner-Cahn: Yeah because here's the thing. The things that are hard for us, that we're able to do for other people, we think there's a lot of value in that because they're hard for us to do. The things that are really easy for us to do are usually the ones that provide the most value to other people that can't do them.

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Deb Zahn: Yeah.

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David Shriner-Cahn: Right? So one of the pieces of feedback I get is I ask really good questions. And it's really easy for me to ask questions. I don't even think about it. I just do it. That's why I love podcasting because I get to ask questions to every podcast guest. I do it with my clients and people really appreciate what I ask. And it ends up doing the things that people most want to pay for, which is it helps them make more money. It helps them save time. And it helps them avoid costly mistakes and going down rabbit holes just with a few questions. It took me a long time to realize that there's actually a lot of value in that, without me actually spending a lot of time agonizing and doing what I consider to be really agonizing, hard work. I do think about the questions that I'm asking. And I think a lot about my clients in between the time that I spend with them, which helps the questions that I do ask when I'm engaged with them. But it took me a long time to recognize that that was of particular value.

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Deb Zahn: Interesting. Yeah, I have found that asking questions even about their mental or emotional state is often some of the most helpful because that's often what's blocking good things from actually occurring. So let me ask you this. You mentioned at the beginning, and I was happy to hear it, that an over-reliance on a website or any of the sort of artifacts related to marketing isn't necessarily what people should be spending all of their time on. So once someone has figured out that narrow niche that they're in and it matches. They've asked themselves all the right questions and they've given themselves good answers. How do you suggest they make choices about, then what are they spending their time doing on the marketing side that actually is going to have a yield and isn't just activity?

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David Shriner-Cahn: Once you start to gain some traction, you need to look at some very simple metrics, which is, assuming that you've had some paying clients, you can look at your recent history of paying clients and see which ones are the ones that are easy to work with that I like working with. These are the ones that are the most profitable, meaning that they generate the biggest income for the least amount of your time as a consultant or a coach. And for those that are most profitable, most enjoyable, easiest to work with, you want more of those. Where did they come from? And you need to do this with regularity. The more you track this information, the more you will see what activity of yours has led to those clients becoming clients. And that's the activity you need to repeat and you need to strengthen.

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So you may find that, especially for consultants and coaches, they rarely come through SEO search engine optimization. It's not because people find you on your website. It's because somebody they know, like and trust says, "You have this problem? You're trying to start a new consulting business? You've got to talk to Deb. She knows how to do it and how to make it profitable." Look at the pattern of where your best business has come from. Do more of whatever activities have generated those clients and do less of the other stuff. And yes, you probably should have a website at some point. Although I do have a client that has had a successful business for 30 years with no website and no social media presence. That's the exception rather than rule. For most consultants and coaches, you need something that will just validate your credentials.

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Frankly, a one-page website is a great place to get started if you have nothing. Don't spend a lot of time trying to put a lot of stuff up if you're not sure what it should be. But see what people want. See what they ask for. And then start to build your website around what people are asking for. The website can be a great repository for information about you that you see you're answering all the time when you're having conversations with leads and prospects. So if leads and prospects are asking you for information about your framework or your process, put a little information about your process on your website. Provide some testimonials of people that have gone through it. That's a great validation and it's not very hard. Also, you can do that in one page or a few pages.

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Put the same thing on your LinkedIn profile. And you can go to the people that have been your referral sources and give them that information as well. Consultants and coaches get most of their business from referrals. You need to have a system of engaging with these referral sources and continuing to build those relationships and think about it as...In your first step with these referral sources. Always approach them with the thinking that you want to know how you can help them because in turn, they will also want to help you. So make sure that it's reciprocal.

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Deb Zahn: That's right. Reciprocity is a powerful biological force that people do definitely, definitely respond to. I love that. And it also suggests, if you're paying attention to where you're getting your most business, but also who you enjoy working with and who you currently do good things for, that seems to suggest that saying no sometimes is a good idea. And I say that sort of tongue in cheek. But I believe the same thing. And I know a lot of new consultants can't imagine saying no because they can't imagine how to fill their pipeline. What do you think the strength and being more discerning does for a business?

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David Shriner-Cahn: Saying no is probably the most important things you can know how to do as an entrepreneur. I think we all suffer from shiny-object syndrome. That's why we became entrepreneurs, so we could do what we want when we wanted and pursue what we wanted to pursue. But the reality is most of those shiny objects won't actually put money in the bank. So you have to pay attention to what is actually profitable. Again, that fits with your core values and your goals and who you are and who you want to serve. And just keep doing that. And also, from a business perspective, what you can do simply and repeatedly is going to be the most profitable. So if it turns out that you have a five-step or seven-step process that you tend to go through with clients over a certain period of time, just look for more clients that need that and can go through it over and over and over again. I guarantee you, it won't be boring to do it with different clients, but it'll get easier for you to do it the more you do it.

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Think about a teacher that teaches the same course to different students over 30 years. By the 30th year, they can teach that course in their sleep. It's not a lot of work for them to prepare for the course. The first time they did it, they probably spent months preparing the first lesson. And as a consultant, it's the same thing. You're going to spend a lot of time the first time you do something. Like I know when I first started podcasting, for those first few episodes-

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Deb Zahn: Oh yeah.

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David Shriner-Cahn: Right? And you can probably relate to this too, Deb?

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Deb Zahn: Ouch. I remember.

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David Shriner-Cahn: For the first few episodes, it is agonizing how much time you spend just to talk to somebody and record it for half an hour. And it took a while until we figured out a good process just for the onboarding process for guests. And now literally it's like, I have a templated email that I send out to somebody that I approve to be a guest. They click on the link, they follow the process and it takes me probably 10 minutes to do really good preparation to have a quality conversation.

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Deb Zahn: That's right. But at the beginning you didn't know.

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David Shriner-Cahn: Right. I didn't know. So it took me hours.

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Deb Zahn: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the other thing is you can do that in a way that it doesn't feel stale for your clients. It doesn't feel like they're getting off the shelf, "This is the only thing I do." You can still get creative. You can still make improvements. And I've found since I do certain things repeatedly, I get better at it as I go along. So the quality also increases because I pay attention to what works, what doesn't, I incorporate new learning into it. But I'm not starting from scratch every single time. Because you're right, if you have to start from scratch every single time you're going to diminish your earning potential and you're probably going to waste some of your client's money.

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David Shriner-Cahn: Absolutely. And one other thing, as we're talking, Deb, one other thing that I think people can do if they're struggling with this idea of trying to find their niche, is they can pay attention to what other consultants have done to find their niche. In preparation for our discussion, I was thinking, "Well, who do I know who's done an interesting job of creating a niche?" And in actuality, it came to my mind that I've had a bunch of guests on my podcasts that have done some really fascinating things with finding a niche. And for many of them, it has not been particularly quick. So if you listen to these stories. You get some ideas about how you could do it faster.

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As an example, Dov Gordon, who you may know, who struggled with marketing and sales until he realized that he had a way of building relationships. That was really the key to it. And just in the last couple of years, he discovered that there was a particular framework he was using that helped consultants get ideal clients with an under the radar system that is now his niche, which I don't know anybody else who's quite is doing it quite like he does.

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Deb Zahn: Yeah. Yeah.

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David Shriner-Cahn: Right? So a lot of people provide marketing and sales information for consultants. His is really unique and I think really clever. And again, it wasn't quick, but it's a really great niche. I had another guest, Teresa Isabel Diaz, who was a pharmacist and her job ended. And she started a practice helping women deal with menopause.

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Deb Zahn: Nice.

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David Shriner-Cahn: Right? It's a very particular niche. It is related to what she was doing as a pharmacist. But it is different. And it taps into all kinds of skills that she wasn't using in her job as a pharmacist. And it's another great niche.

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Deb Zahn: Well, I will tell you personally, it is a wonderful niche because I've had so many conversations with women about menopause recently. And you're in that place where you're like, "Oh my God, someone, please help me."

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David Shriner-Cahn: Yes.

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Deb Zahn: And so she doesn't have to do all women's health. She picks one thing where there's going to be high demand for it.

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David Shriner-Cahn: Exactly. Exactly. I had another guest, I think this is brilliant. Simon Brady, who is a financial advisor, and God knows in New York every time you go to a networking event, you can't help but trip over financial advisors. They're everywhere. He created a successful practice by focusing on niches that nobody else was paying attention to. Not nobody, but very few people. So he's in a very crowded industry. And he left a high-pressure Wall Street job to become a financial advisor, which is a common path. But to set himself apart, he focuses on suddenly single millennials. The widows and widowers who are between the ages of 20 and 40. Immigrants. He happens to be an immigrant from the UK, and those coming out of a divorce. So it's not the usual demographic that financial advisors try to target. And all of these people get taken advantage of because of the emotional stress they're under, naivete or language barriers. And the last one, who I think is one of the best examples of creating a niche, whom you may also know, is Dorie Clark.

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Deb Zahn: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen some of her stuff.

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David Shriner-Cahn: She was an unemployed political reporter. And that sort of was the beginning. There were some twists and turns, but that was probably...I think she had some entrepreneurial step ups and then some employment steps. But once she became a full-time entrepreneur, she researched how people who made their living with their expertise as entrepreneurs did it successfully. And then she wrote about the framework in three books. And she's been very successful in teaching other people how to do this.

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Deb Zahn: That's wonderful. Yeah. The other I would add, the person I was working with just a couple of days ago, who we finally narrowed down to something that's actually actionable. Part of hers was, "Where have you actually achieved other results that you can point to and say, 'I can actually help you achieve these things.' And give an example that's relevant to a client, so that it's not some vague result you achieved with someone that has nothing to do with them?" And she ended up picking a niche that's very specific. She has things that she can point to that will excite the folks that she's talking to. And it happens to be people she absolutely loves working with. And she knows in depth what they're really struggling with.

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David Shriner-Cahn: Yeah. That's a great example as well. And again, there are lots of examples like this on lots of podcasts and lots of other places in the media. So pay attention to what you see. And learn from the mistakes others have made.

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Deb Zahn: That's right. And take some shortcuts because-

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David Shriner-Cahn: Absolutely.

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Deb Zahn: You have to sit and do it. I like how you talk about it. You have to spend the time to do it, but you don't have to do it ad nauseam. You can listen to other people and take some really good shortcuts. So how do people find out about you? Because I know you are also a podcaster. So where do people go if they want to find out more?

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David Shriner-Cahn: Our central hub is the name of our podcast, Smashing the Plateau. So just go to smashingtheplateau.com. There are literally many hundreds of episodes of both shows there, Smashing the Plateau and Going Solo. And if you have questions about anything, there is a contact form on the website. You can get in touch with me. You can connect with me on LinkedIn. You can even pick up the phone and the old-fashioned way, make a phone call.

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Deb Zahn: The phone?!

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David Shriner-Cahn: Which gets answered by a live person. 9:00 - 5:00 ET Monday through Friday.

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Deb Zahn: Imagine that.

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David Shriner-Cahn: 212-731-0770.

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Deb Zahn: Wonderful. And I will have all of that in the show notes. So let me ask you one last question about what you want your life to be like. Which work is a part of life. It isn't separate from it. This is really important. So however it is you define balance or constructing the life you want, what are some of the things that you do to do that?

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David Shriner-Cahn: To create balance?

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Deb Zahn: Yeah, to create balance or the life that you actually want?

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David Shriner-Cahn: Yeah. And I like to talk about it as integration. Because balance to me, sounds like you're compartmentalizing a little bit. Which I try not to do. Yeah, so the interesting thing is as entrepreneurs, those of us that were employees first, one of the reasons we may have been attracted to become entrepreneurs is this idea of freedom. The absence of structure imposed by other people. The reality is that if you want to be successful, actually, the more structured you are, the more successful you will be. But the good news is as an entrepreneur, you get to pick the structure.

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Deb Zahn: That's right.

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David Shriner-Cahn: Right? So for me, I try to include starting my day with some elements of gratitude. I try to write something down that I'm grateful for. Gives me the right mindset for the day. I try to be clear on what success would look like each day and keep it really simple so that I'm actually able to accomplish what I want to accomplish. I try to do something physical, like workout a little bit each morning. Not a huge amount, but at least something. And then several days a week, I will take time out to do some longer exercise that gets the heart rate up and helps free my mind a little bit. I will spend time getting myself...Actually, I tend to do this the night before. I find this is a better routine. I set out my agenda for the following day so that I don't have to think about it in the morning. I just look at my list and go, "OK, I've done my gratitude piece. I've done a little bit of deep thinking. I've done a little bit on my body. Here's my plan. This is what I'm going to work on."

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And I try to make sure that I have chunks of time, particularly when I'm at high energy, to work on the most important things that are going to take focus and concentration. So I try to do those at the beginning of the day. I am pretty clear about structuring when I will be free to talk with anybody new or unexpected calls with anybody who needs me. That's not pre-scheduled. So I do block time for that. But it's not helter-skelter. It's at times when I know I can be available. So maybe I'll do that a couple of days a week. I have a few hours set aside that I can take on any kind of new thing. I don't know, that's, I would say, the basis of it. And I try to spend time with family and doing things that are fun and make sure that that's planned as well.

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Deb Zahn: Yeah. That's right. Because you don't want that to just be the, "Oh yeah and then my family."

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David Shriner-Cahn: No.

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Deb Zahn: That's wonderful. That's a fantastic list. I especially like the gratitude and moving your body in the morning. Those are things that I do too. And set intentions. That's just wonderful. Well, David, this has been an absolute pleasure. I can't wait to join you on your podcast. But I will have everything in the show notes so that folks can find you. And thanks so much for joining me.

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David Shriner-Cahn: Thank you, Deb.

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Deb Zahn: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Craft of Consulting Podcast. I want to ask you to do actually three things. If you enjoyed this episode or if you've enjoyed any of my other ones, hit subscribe. I got a lot of other great guests that are coming up and a lot of other great content and I don't want you to miss anything. But the other two things that I'm going to ask you to do is, one is, if you have any comments, so if you have any suggestions or any kind of feedback that will help make this podcast more helpful to more listeners, please include those.

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And then the last thing is, again, if you've gotten something out of this, share it, share it with somebody you know who's a consultant or thinking about being a consultant, and make sure that they also have access to all this great content and all the other great content that's going to be coming up.

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So as always, you can go and get more wonderful information and tools at craftofconsulting.com. Thanks so much. I will talk to you on the next episode. Bye-bye.