Episode 112: Expectations vs. Reality When Consulting—with Sergio Matos
Deb Zahn: Hi. I want to welcome you to this week's episode of The Craft of Consulting Podcast. This week it is all about expectations versus reality of when you start consulting and particularly in your first couple years. Expectations about getting clients, about who you should be serving, about what your value is to them, about getting paid. And I brought on someone who I have known since before either of us were consultants, Sergio Matos, who is one of the most amazing trainers and facilitators I've ever seen and we actually dig into that at the end because he does it like no one I've ever seen.
But we talk about what it was like in his two attempts at becoming a consultant and how he got it right the second time after it didn't work the first time. So there's a whole lot of wisdom packed into this episode that can help you know, one, that you're not alone in this and two, there is a way to do it as long as you prepare for it and you set your expectations closer to what reality is going to actually look like. Let's get started.
I want to welcome to my show today, Sergio Matos. Sergio, welcome to the show.
Sergio Matos: Thank you. Hi Deb.
Deb Zahn: Let's start off. Tell my listeners what you do.
Sergio Matos: I am an independent consultant. I am the Founder and CEO of a corporation, a limited liability corporation incorporated in the state of New York, named Health Innovation Associates. We provide consulting services to a workforce called Community Health Workers and to healthcare organizations that wish to integrate the work of Community Health Workers into their operations.
Deb Zahn: And you know that makes my heart sing because you and I have known each other since before either of us were consultants, which is why I was so eager to have you on this show. We're going to get into what some of that work is and how you got started. But why do you do this work and why are you doing this as a consultant?
Sergio Matos: I became a Community Health Worker by serendipity actually and as a second career. I had retired at an early age from my previous career as a chemist and mathematician, and I was looking for something that was more personally fulfilling and more involved with humans than my previous work. I stumbled upon a job. I was a Community Health Worker. I was offered the position and I took it.
What I quickly learned was that I worked alone most of the time and the work was very personal and intimate, and it left me in a lot of distress having to do that alone. And I was carrying home a lot of burdens. So eventually I became an organizer just because I had the personal need to seek out colleagues and share your wisdom.
Deb Zahn: And can you, just for our listeners who don't know about how wonderful Community Health Workers are, can you define what that means?
Sergio Matos: Yeah, a Community Health Worker is sort of a social position. It is a person. Most people probably know a Community Health Worker, but they're generally people in your community, your neighborhood, your village, your town that you go to. It's a trusted member of your community that you seek out counsel and wisdom from. Very typically, Community Health Workers are engaged around issues of pregnancy and delivery and maternal and child health. The role of women helping other women in maternal and child health is one of the foundations of our practice. But that's the doula, birthing assistant friend, colleague is sort of the model. It's a peer model.
Deb Zahn: It's a beautiful model, and I know that you've done incredible work to promote that model with others to make sure that it gets the recognition that it needs. I applaud it 100%. I also love that you're in this because you want to do good in the world. You can be a consultant and do good in the world, which I think is a powerful message. So when you started off, how did you make the switch from becoming a consultant from what you did before?
Sergio Matos: Yeah. So before, as is typical, most Community Health Worker projects are grant funded. And grants are very specific in what you may or may not do and they're very demanding in general. So I was finding myself very limited. Plus, I was at a very prestigious university hospital system in New York City which was also very conservative and rigid in their approaches to wellbeing and their understanding of what it means to be well. They were more disease-focused. So I was finding myself frustrated within those constraints, and I decided maybe...Oh, and the other thing was that it was costing me a lot of money to exist at this institution because I had to give them a large percentage of my income. I have to support myself and give them a percent. And it was a lot. And so I decided that wasn't really working for me anymore, and I decided to just try on my own because I felt, if I was able to support myself and not have those rigid constraints on me, I might be able to do more of what my spirit yearns for.
Deb Zahn: Yeah. Oh, I love the “spirit yearned for.” I know that yearning intimately. So I knew you...Actually, I heard of you before I ever met you. So I know how well-respected you were in the field and then we've had a chance to work together so I know how well-respected you are. But I know when you switched to being a consultant, it's not that all bets are off but the world changes. So when you first started consulting, what was the difference between what you expected to happen and what actually happened?
Sergio Matos: Yeah, that's a great question. In full disclosure, I should say that this is the second time I've tried to become a consultant. The first time was a total failure.
Deb Zahn: Ouch.
Sergio Matos: And the reason was I was unprepared. So the question you're asking me is really, at least in my experience, really relevant. One of the big things that surprised me the first time around was that there exists...no matter where you are, like you said, I was at the top of my game. I was recognized nationally and internationally. I was well known. I was appreciated. And I really thought I was at the top of my game. I was a CEO already and I was an executive director at the program I was running. But I was surprised when I became a consultant that there existed a significant delay in building up a client base. I really assumed everybody knows me, people are going to flock to my door. That did not happen. It took a good six months to nine months to really put myself out there as an independent consultant and to get people to understand that and appreciate it. Even people who knew me. The second time around, I was prepared for that lack of income for nine months while I built up my client base and that led to more success.
Deb Zahn: And you and I have shared, you know I had the same experience. I suddenly shifted into being a consultant and I thought surely people like me, they respect me. There's got to be a line, and all I have to do is just pick people off that line. And it's just really, really different. So when you did it the second time and you prepared, so you had some money in the bank to manage not just the delays in getting clients, but we'll talk about payment in a moment and the often delays in getting paid. But how did you go about getting clients differently than what you did the first time?
Sergio Matos: Right, so that's another huge question. And I will say, before I answer that question, that the other thing that surprised me besides the delay in building a client database was the amount of energy and time that it took to contract. For some reason, I had this fantasy that people would want my services and I go in and sign the contract and we're all done.
Deb Zahn: Oh, that's the dream.
Sergio Matos: That was not even close to a dream. I found that the whole proposal and budgeting and marketing process was actually quite exhausting and lengthy and that the delivery of the service was actually just the end point. And a lot of work went into setting up that delivery. Yeah. That took a lot of time. In response directly to the question you just asked, I had to shift my perspective significantly because, again, I was a director. And if you've been a director, you get accustomed to dictating.
Deb Zahn: Yes.
Sergio Matos: You manage a corporate or a business vision and mission and you carry that out. You enforce a specific plan and you tell people how to do things. So I had to really shift my perspective to one where I'm not telling people...I mean, you can't tell a client what to do. But I do have wisdom. I did have a little bit of experience, and I have some knowledge to share. But I have to shift my perspective to that of the client and really learn to, instead of dictating and talking so much, to really listen and come to appreciate what it is this client needs and does that fit? Did that come in with my purpose, with my existence, and how can we work together on helping that client with their needs? If there is a consciousness of spirit involved.
Deb Zahn: That's right.
Sergio Matos: So that took me a while, again because I wasn't used to listening, listening, listening. My mother used to say we have two ears and one mouth so you should hear twice as much as you speak.
Deb Zahn: That needs to be a T-shirt. I love that.
Sergio Matos: Right? And that was a learned experience for me. The other thing that I came to realize in being a consultant was the amount of effort that goes into contracting and the fact that, when I started out, I was a one-person show. If I needed something from Staples, I had to go to Staples.
Deb Zahn: That's right. That's right.
Sergio Matos: There was no company copying machine. It was my copying machine and if it didn't work, I had to get it fixed. And besides all that operational daily stuff, the issues of bookkeeping and accounting and managing advertising and social media. Any one of those items can consume your existence, and I really had to figure out what services to focus my efforts on and what I just needed to employ or get work for these services. Specifically, for me, it turned out to be bookkeeping and accounting. That was something that I just needed to market out.
Deb Zahn: Yeah. I mean, you could go through this death by 1,000 papercuts approach of, "Oh, and now I have to enter my expenses. Oh, now I have to categorize everything. Oh, now this needs to happen." And then what you're not doing is doing things that make your heart sing like the good work that you're on the planet to do and you're not doing things that open the door to you being able to do that good work that you're on the planet for. And I know one thing you did at the beginning because you touched upon having to marry what you most wanted to do with what clients had a demand for and what results they wanted to achieve. How did you figure out what your niche was? What was that process like?
Sergio Matos: Another great question and I'm sure it is common for folks. So it was a process. When I first started out, I was just marketing. I was casting my net as far and wide as I could, and I found that that was not efficient. In fact, it was a waste of my effort and time. So what I had to do was this: step back and figure out what do I want to pursue? And that took some strategic planning on my part with me and myself about what is my vision for myself, for my life, and what is my mission? And I had to strategically plan these things out, just to be honest. And these have to be short, concise content.
Deb Zahn: That's right.
Sergio Matos: So my vision…you can get wordy about the vision…but my vision was basically to be at peace and to do good.
Deb Zahn: That's beautiful.
Sergio Matos: That was my vision. My mission specifically evolved into advancing Community Health Worker the workforce.
That's my mission.
Deb Zahn: That's it.
Sergio Matos: That's it. I accomplished that through education, advocacy, and research. So having established that vision and mission, I was able then to target my marketing to people who had that interest in funding those kinds of efforts.
Deb Zahn: Let me ask one question because I wanted...That's so profound what you just said. I want to dig into it a little bit. So that's one of the clearest, by the way, visions and missions that I've heard. And that's why I want to pause there because I want folks to be able to hear that. But how did you actually then say, "OK, if it's this clear and it's going to be these three things that I do, who's going to actually hire me to do it?" Which is of course the next step.
Sergio Matos: Right. Yeah. I had to do the marketing research. But I should say, my vision, it's to do good in the world fundamentally. Now that doesn't mean that that has to be your vision. Your vision might be to make a lot of money, and that's fine. That's purposeful. If that's your vision, that's your vision. But you need to have a vision or else you're just shooting in the dark. You're aimless and you're going to spend a lot of time and energy and resources where you might not need to because it's not simple. So whatever your vision is, you need to figure out what it is and put it into concise language that piques somebody's interest.
Deb Zahn: Right. And they know you're talking to them and not just a generic consultant with a tie or a generic consultant with a briefcase. You are for them, and they are for you.
Sergio Matos: Yeah. And it takes time. But once I had a mission, then I was able to target my marketing. I was able to find vendors that had common ground with me and that I could enjoy working with. I got to say, in spite of that stuff I said about being a one person show and the extraordinary amount of work that comes with being of its own, it also provides freedom. It provides an enormous amount of freedom for you to fulfill your life whatever your mission is. If I chose to go to the park right now and read a book, I can do that and I can work at 2 o'clock in the morning to catch up or do whatever I need to do with it. But I have that freedom now because I'm clear about what I want to do. I'm clear about the clients I want to accept. And I'm clear...I'm passionate, really, about the work that I do and the reason that I'm passionate about it is because I'm doing something that I have a vision to do.
Deb Zahn: That's right. And it's your vision and it's your mission. It's not who you work for's vision, mission, which also then gives you freedom to seek the clients that you want to seek. When you decide I'm going to really focus and clarify what I want to do as a consultant, I know for some people that's scary because it feels like if I get too focused and if I niche down that specifically, there's just not going to be enough work out there for me. Did you experience that or did you have faith that there was going to be work for you?
Sergio Matos: I had faith. Another thing that my mother always told me was that if you're doing something that you love to do, you will find something for it. You will find support for it. I found that to be true. I mean, don't get me wrong. There are times when you narrow your niche so much that you have to revisit it and strategic planning is not something you do once in your life. It's an ongoing process. So every two years, annually, some people do it quarterly, actually, but I annually drop back. I go on a retreat with myself and I explore the market and I rethink. Are there emerging dynamics in the market or emerging players that fit my niche that I need to expand my understanding to be able to include and involve them? And if there's someone else that I can support in advancing their visions and missions that coincide or share common ground with my visions. So I do that periodically.
Deb Zahn: Yeah, I imagine COVID was a bit of a trigger for that as well. So how did you change what you did when COVID arose?
Sergio Matos: Right. So COVID threw everyone for a loop but, in particular because of the methodologies and pedagogy that I deploy, my form of consultancy really involved interaction and personal contact and participation with my clients. So that threw a curve because we weren't allowed to gather. But, besides that, a lot of my clients were healthcare industry people and, during COVID, there was no interest in professional development or training or expanding people's understanding. All money went into getting masks, respirators, and emergency help for the first six months and then getting vaccines and all of that stuff. So the medical industry was focused on that response and really not much concern about any professional development. So I had to...It was an impetus for me to drop back and rethink my whole strategic plan. Again, out of necessity. Not so much planning and find out what areas might I be able to fit into.
I think I chose not to focus on the COVID itself but on the ramifications of COVID and to help people become empowered to deal with this assault on our society. More so than the medical part of it because I decided in my strategic planning, I think, that not enough attention was being put on the burdens on society, on communities, on families, on parents, on children. That's where I could fit my vision to adjust for COVID. Not so much in the medical stuff.
Deb Zahn: That's great. But it sounds very much a deliberate decision which is what I applaud instead of just like, "Oh, my goodness. Where am I going to get money?" But let's pause and talk about payment because you and I talked about this before we got on. So there's the whole, yes the proposal, the contract, the marketing, that can all take longer than you expect if you don't do it in your life already. But then there's the getting paid. So you think you got a signed contract. Woo-hoo, everything's good, I now have income. And the answer is, oh, do you have income because the contract was signed? So what's your experience been in terms of the actual payment and cash flow piece of it?
Sergio Matos: Yeah, that was another surprise so I'm really glad you asked that question. I found very seldom that I got paid in what I considered a reasonable amount of time. And by reasonable, I mean a month. That was rare, actually. In fact, most contractors in my experience have a 90 day payment actually itemized in the contract. So they had no expectations of paying you until three months from now, at least.
Deb Zahn: Oh, yeah. And even if you have it in the contract for 30 days, they have no expectation of paying you for 90 days.
Sergio Matos: Right. Yeah. So payment turned out to be a long time. And again, I learned this from my first experience. My first attempt at consulting. And I knew to expect that my second time around so I had a nest egg to be able to carry me over. But also I found that a lot of contractors...And I don't think this is malicious. I just think that some of these, some of the contractors I work with are bureaucratic and it's big organizations, but sometimes you submit a bill or an invoice and they don't get paid at all. So I had to start planning things to follow up on and maybe the third time I contacted them to pay me...It got to be not infrequent, sorry for the double negative, but it is frequent that people do not pay on the first invoice. From the perspective of being prepared, don't think that just because you sent out an invoice, it's a done deal or that you have income. You don't have anything yet until the check shows up.
Deb Zahn: That's right. That's right.
Sergio Matos: So payment takes a long time to invoice and to get paid. And it might take a lot longer than you think is reasonable, and you should be prepared for that.
Deb Zahn: Right. And I like how you highlighted that and you will have to actively do things sometimes to get paid which means you need to have your systems set up to do it and/or, and this is something that I've been doing recently. I've been changing my payment model so that there are dollars up front or monthly dollars through a retainer or value based contracting because those things are too frequent. I don't have them with all my clients but I've had them with enough that I'd rather charge in a different way.
Sergio Matos: Yeah, no, it's not a universal experience but it is common.
Deb Zahn: Absolutely common. And if it's academia or if it's states, yeah. You're going to have a faint memory of that work by the time you get paid.
Sergio Matos: Yeah, no, I've had, again to be honest with you, I've had times when I've forgotten. I've tried so many times to get paid that I've either chalked it up or forgotten that I'm due those monies, and all of a sudden, the check will show up a year later.
Deb Zahn: And you're like, "Is it my birthday?"
Sergio Matos: Yeah.
Deb Zahn: Yeah, actually that helped me during COVID because I'd done some work for a just very bureaucratic entity that could not help it. There was no way it wasn't going to happen, and I knew that. And so I ended up getting all of these payments that had been over a year since I had done the work but they hit as soon as COVID happened, and I thought, "Well, that just worked out nicely. I didn't plan that, but I'll take it."
Sergio Matos: That was nice. Yeah. The other thing I want to say about payment, depending on who you're consulting, who your client is, the invoicing process itself might be quite complicated.
Deb Zahn: Absolutely.
Sergio Matos: There are some state and municipal agencies that have very cumbersome billing processes that take quite a bit of time. Just know, in the sense of advice and sharing my experience, I just want to highlight that. It might take some time to do an invoice. It's not just writing a letter.
Deb Zahn: Absolutely and the devil is in the details so you have to know going into it what type of tracking do they want you to do, how do they want you to report how you worked and what you did. I have a contract that I've been involved in where we can't have anyone else do any other work unless we have permission ahead of time. So if I think, "Well the most efficient way to do this is to have someone who costs less than me do this piece of work," I can't get them paid unless I get permission ahead of time. And you have to pay attention to those details or you're going to end up losing money or in conflict.
Sergio Matos: Right. And that doesn't necessarily require legal advice or legal counsel, although that's always wonderful. But it really does require detailed reading of the scope of work and the details in the contract. It just takes time. You just have to focus and take time to do it. You need to know those things.
Deb Zahn: That's the business side of consulting. It's not just hanging a shingle up.
But I want to get into some of the work that you actually do because I feel quite honored to have seen you in action and then, I know you're too modest but I'm going to say it anyway, been in awe of what I saw in terms of your ability to do training and facilitation in a way that I have not seen a lot. So what's your approach because I know that's one of the things that you get paid for as part of your business. How do you approach doing training and facilitation for the workforce development that you do that's different than what you've seen?
Sergio Matos: Yeah. Thank you. Just to frame that question, I provide training and consultation to a variety of people involved in the healthcare sector and that might be executives and administrators to medical providers, nurses, assistants, community health workers themselves. But really just sort of general consultancy on integrating the social aspects of being well into medical care. So to give you an example, if you have diabetes, your medicine folks, your medical consultants might be concerned with controlling your sugar. But there are also people who are concerned with your housing and your employment and your insurance and the way you get medications and the way that you get to healthy foods. And then your doctor, your medical doctor, might not take care of those issues. And so I help build interdisciplinary teams of both the medical providers and the social dynamic providers so that they can work together to provide more holistic care of people. And not just manage their diseases, but improve their wellness, OK? So I do that in a way that...It's innovative in this country, but it's actually pretty common in most of the world.
As opposed to western education, which is primarily dictatorial, in our education settings, we dictate. We do PowerPoint presentations. We give people information. We expect them to sit there quietly and just absorb everything that we say because we have an educational system that's driven by content experts. We hire content experts to help everybody else out. Well, the rest of the world doesn't. A lot of the rest of the world doesn't do it that way. They do a thing called liberation education which involves a real, dramatic, paradigm shift and philosophical shift in understanding of people. So we don't consider learners to be empty vessels. We consider learners to be wise, experienced adults that come with a lot of expertise and wisdom and our job as a trainer is to harness that ability. Our job is to create an environment that's safe enough so that folks are free and able to contribute their wisdom and their understanding and their lived experiences to the learning experience itself. Everything that people learn when I'm facilitating an effort with them does not depend on my knowledge alone but it depends on the wisdom of the collective group because everyone contributes.
I'm an equal member of the group. I learn as much as I teach and people learn as much as they share. And it's often called an empowering approach and I don't use that language in my consultancy with clients because it's a little confrontational or dramatic.
Deb Zahn: Yeah.
Sergio Matos: Western education is often described as oppressive in the sense that the student, the learner, is limited in their learning capacity by the lecturer. So if you're engaged in a lecture, you're speaking to 300 people in the lecture hall. And those 300 people will depend on your wisdom, your knowledge, and only your knowledge. If there's something I don't know in a lecture setting, they will not learn it because I will not consider it. Now in liberation education because the wisdom comes from the group, the collective group, then learning is broader and wider and more diverse. And now the group becomes liberated because they're not dependent on me. In fact, they're independent of me as a content expert because they're bringing their own wisdom and understanding to get experience. Now it's easy to think about philosophically. It's very hard to put into practice just because of our background. We're used to lecturing. We're used to creating PowerPoint presentations. We're used to doing that. We're not used to asking people's opinions while we're teaching. We're not used to asking for their wisdom. And it's a difficult thing to do at first.
The other big thing is that, even people who do engage the learners, often the dynamic is that they'll give a lecture and then they'll ask for questions or comments. Or what do you think?
Deb Zahn: That's right. Or “what do you think about what I just said?”
Sergio Matos: But you already framed it. You've already biased the whole discussion so you're not...People are not...They don't feel empowered, first of all because you already assumed all the power in the first 30 minutes by taking control of the whole conversation so they don't feel empowered to contribute to it. And plus, you've already biased it anyway and you're the content expert so nobody's going to contribute very much. That often happens if they're not falling asleep already.
Deb Zahn: That's right. Which they probably are snoozing. The analogy that was always powerful to me when I engaged with liberation education and Paulo Freire and Augusto Boal and folks like that is I think if someone's lecturing, and all they've ever seen is the back of an elephant, that's all they can describe to you. They can't describe to you what the elephant looks like. They can only describe from their perspective. But if you bring everybody into the process on equal footing and being able to share their wisdom and their knowledge and their experience, now you got the whole elephant.
Sergio Matos: Yeah. Yeah. That's a perfect analogy to say.
Deb Zahn: So what is next in your consulting world? Where are you headed to next?
Sergio Matos: I think in time during this period where we've all had to become hermits…
Deb Zahn: Some of us like it better than others.
Sergio Matos: ...I've taken advantage to sort of rethink financing and what's next. Maybe do some visioning again. I think I've come to the point where I'm fulfilled with what I'm doing and now that sort of COVID is coming under control, I think there's a redirection of people's attention towards building capacity within their organizations and funding those. I don't feel a need for a drastic shift. I actually think it'll get better than it has been according to my understanding of the market. And plus, the federal government has put a lot of money into COVID recovery, community recovery, and of course the hospitals have attached themselves to some of that money. Significant amount of that money. I think the consequences of COVID, once we solve the medical issue which we're well on the way to doing, what will remain will be the social impact.
Deb Zahn: That's right.
Sergio Matos: Right? So we're going to have to adjust those. What's happened to the school system? We haven't used it for a year. What about all these people who can't get back to work because their jobs have disappeared? What about the small businesses that had to go under? All of these social dynamics. What about the mobile vegetable stand things that come to my neighborhood? They're not around anymore.
Deb Zahn: Right.
Sergio Matos: So I think I'll stay focused on supporting those social determinants of individual and community wellbeing because I think there's support for it and it's what I want to do.
Deb Zahn: That's wonderful. And so, in addition to the wonderful good work that you do in the world, you also want to be at peace and enjoy your life. So how do you bring balance to your life, however it is you define that?
Sergio Matos: Yeah, so again, I love my work and that didn't happen magically. I had to make some decisions. I had to surrender some security. I had to do some work to be able to do what I wanted to do. But I think that if I was really doing something I was passionate about, that it would be recognized and supported. So that goes a long way towards fulfilling my life and rounding out my existence because I love what I'm doing. The other big thing is that there's a lot of human contact involved in the work that I do because we're sharing really intimate stuff. When you ask people, and you provide the safety for them to share their lived experience, it's amazing the humanity, the courage, the resiliency, the desire, the hope, the faith that people have and that's inspiring. And I get to do that at work. So that's-
Deb Zahn: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Sergio Matos: ...pretty cool. But then also like I said before, I mean, I have some hobbies. If I want to engage in those hobbies, I'm free to do that and I'm free to make that work time at any other time. If I want to take a week off and go scuba diving, which I love to do, I can do that because I'm my boss. If I want to take a dance class at 3 o'clock in the afternoon, it's OK. I can do that.
Deb Zahn: That's right.
Sergio Matos: And I'll get back at six and I'll get back to work. So being a consultant for me, and I didn't know this when I became a consultant, I did not have a full appreciation for the extraordinary amount of freedom and fulfillment that it would provide. And I'm really, really happy that, even though I failed the first time, that I gave it another shot because it really has shaped my life. It really has made me a happier person. That's what I yearn for. I yearn for happiness. I aim to sleep well at night.
Deb Zahn: Yeah. Well, the work you do, you should be sleeping like a baby. Like a really tired baby who sleeps through the night.
Sergio Matos: A really tired...Yeah.
Deb Zahn: Well, Sergio, I can't thank you enough for being on the show. We talked about this months ago and I'm so glad that we were able to connect and have you on so my appreciation for you and what you shared is so deep. Thank you.
Sergio Matos: Thank you very much, Deb. I so appreciate our friendship.
Deb Zahn: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Craft of Consulting Podcast. I want to ask you to do actually three things. If you enjoyed this episode or if you've enjoyed any of my other ones, hit subscribe. I got a lot of other great guests that are coming up and a lot of other great content and I don't want you to miss anything. But the other two things that I'm going to ask you to do is, one is, if you have any comments, so if you have any suggestions or any kind of feedback that will help make this podcast more helpful to more listeners, please include those.
And then the last thing is, again, if you've gotten something out of this, share it, share it with somebody you know who's a consultant or thinking about being a consultant, and make sure that they also have access to all this great content and all the other great content that's going to be coming up.
So as always, you can go and get more wonderful information and tools at craftofconsulting.com. Thanks so much. I will talk to you on the next episode. Bye-bye.