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Episode 114: Getting More Clients with Copy that Converts—with Jaimee Maree

Deb Zahn: Hi. I want to welcome you to this week's episode of the Craft of Consulting podcast. So in this episode, we're going to dive into something that, just to be totally honest with you, you're probably doing wrong. I've done it wrong. Lots of consultants I've seen have done it wrong. And the problem is, it's costing you business.

I say that not to sound negative. I say that to make sure that you listen to this because we are going to be talking about how important it is to have the right copy. So that's what you actually have in writing that is on your website and things that face the client. To have it done so well that it actually drives the action you want them to have, whether it's scheduling a call with you or actually converting people into clients, there is a science behind this. And if you don't do it right, you're going to be leaving business on the table.

I brought on an amazing expert, Jaimee Maree, who's from Savvy Copy. She's done this for me and she is absolutely fantastic. She's going to walk through what happens when you do it wrong and what happens when you do it right, and how you can make sure that the copy you have supports your business goals and gets you clients. So let's get started.
I want to welcome my guest today, Jaimee Maree. Jaimee, welcome to the show.

Jaimee Maree: Thank you very much for having me, Deb.

Deb Zahn: Absolutely. So let's start off. Tell my listeners what you do.

Jaimee Maree: I am a conversion-focused copywriter, basically a direct-response copywriter. We help lots of different types of business. So we help coaches, consultants, service professionals, eCommerce, SaaS businesses, and we basically help to transform their online presence with copy that converts, brings in more leads, more clients, and helps people have more impact.

Deb Zahn: That's wonderful. Let's dig into that a little bit because I know that copywriting is magical, but not everybody does. So what is copywriting and why does it matter when you're trying to sell something?

Jaimee Maree: Sure. So copywriting...I mean, at its core, it really is just writing the text that's on a page, but it comes down to a lot more than that. And there's lots of different types of copywriting from brand copywriting to social media, content writing, SEO writing, and then we've got direct-response copywriting, and that really is about a whole lot more than really just writing text on a page. So the end result seems to be the text on the page, but it comes down to a lot more of doing a lot of deep research, understanding who the audience is, understanding the product, understanding the problems, pain points, challenges that people have, and then infusing that into copywriting.

There's a lot of sales skills that go into direct-response copywriting, and it really is...The interesting part of direct-response copywriting is getting someone to make an action at that specific time.

So there can be different types of copywriting, which is like branded copywriting, which is what you might see on billboards and things like big brands and things like that. They've got a particular outcome that they want to achieve.

For direct-response copywriting is really there's a whole lot of psychology to it. There is a lot of sales skills to it. And the real ultimate goal of it is to get someone to take action. So whether that's to become a lead at that time, whether it's to sign up and become a client at that time, that's the ultimate goal.

Deb Zahn: That's great. I love that distinction because when a lot of consultants first start off…in this day and age, I think most folks know you got to have a website, maybe do a little social media, but often what I see is just writing down what they do and then writing down what they offer and call it a day. So say a little bit more about how this is different. So if you're a consultant and one of your goals is to get people, let's say, on your website or to engage with you, how is really good copywriting different from just writing down, I offer these services, I offer these products?

Jaimee Maree: Well, that's the thing because a lot of people, it's not just consultants. This happens a lot in the consultancy space, I see it all the time. It happens at a lot of businesses. Where they do, they say what it is that they do, but what they really fail to realize is that there are a lot of parts of the process of people saying yes in order to sign up to something or to want a particular service is not only the fact that you've got competitors. So there's lots of different ways that people can go, but it's also helping them to understand and move them to the action of actually needing your services and knowing that you're the right fit.

You can present what your services are, but the psychology behind people actually wanting your services, there's a whole lot that needs to happen before then that will actually make them realize that they want and need your services. So the process of copywriting is designed to do a lot more than describe what it is that you've got to offer. It's designed to open up. It's designed to connect with them emotionally. That's what a lot of people forget. We're trying to speak to someone who has particular wants, needs, desires, problems, challenges, that's what we need to really hone in on and speak to before they're even aware that they need your services or before they're actually ready.

There's a lot of other things that impact copywriting and, again, we're going to dive into the psychology of that and what needs to be put into copy, but the reason why it's not just enough to put on your website, this is what I do so if you need that come and find me because there's so many things that will distract them and unless you put these psychological drivers within your copy, you then become...As I mentioned before, you've got competitors that potentially offer the same thing. Whether they're as good or not, that's all that they're then comparing them on. OK, well these businesses, they do this, these businesses, they do that, and that's the end of the game.

The thing that we say with copywriting, and I say this with as much love, is that we, as copywriters, we actually don't care what the end solution is. So we don't care what your product is. What we really care about is going, well, that's how you solve the problem, so how do we talk to the problem that someone has beforehand? Because that's what matters to them. They don't care how you are going to help them get more leads, more pipeline, more sales, from your perspective of how do you help consultants to do all of these different things. They don't really care about the nitty gritty of doing that, but what they care about is all of the pain points, the problems, the challenges that they're experiencing right now, so that's what we've got to talk to.

It's almost like it's a secondary thing wherever we write copy is we're like, we don't care what you offer, but let's...Probably 80% of what we're writing to is all the other stuff that actually matters to the client or to each customer.

Deb Zahn: Well, and you're saying something profound, so I want to pause there because I want people to understand this. You're saying it without saying it, which is, it's not about you. If I'm a consultant with a website, often people will pull from their resume and put things on their website, or say, I do these three things, and they make it about themselves rather than making it about who they truly want to get business from or who they want to click on the button, if they even have a button, that says schedule a call with me. Which is often missing.

Jaimee Maree: I know. We're going to dive into that too.

Deb Zahn: You're now making it hard for me to do what you want me to do. But it's about who you're trying to get business from. And that's a really different orientation, and it's got to look that way, feel that way, and the copy has to match that.

Jaimee Maree: Exactly. And this is something that I know we're going to touch on later, but it's actually, when we talk about what's a one game changing tip when it comes to copywriting, it's exactly what you just said. What people often do is they shine a spotlight on themselves whenever they do any marketing. So they show what we do, and we say our clients do this, or our services help our clients do all of this. But when you can actually switch that and make that, so we have the formula role. The percentage that's usually 80/20, it needs to be 80% about the person that's visiting your site, 20% about you.

The really quick way to go about checking whether you're doing this is to literally go to your website, hit control F, or command F, or whatever it is on your, whether you're using Mac or PC, and type it in. Type in our, I, and we. Now, you have to put some settings on that for the I and how they come up to make sure that you're not just getting every I on the page, but then you then type in you and your. And you've really got to have that balance of using the words you and your 80% of the time, and then words like I, our, and we, only 20% of the time.

This in and of itself will make a huge, huge difference because when you're actually having a conversation with the person who is getting paid, and instead of saying our services help our clients to experience this, even if it is our services will help you to do X, Y, and Z. Complete different messaging. And it's crazy the difference that that can make from a marketing perspective, no matter what it is that you're doing, whether you're having conversations, whether it's in copywriting, it's all about what can you help them do. Not about you.

Deb Zahn: That's right. It's no different than when you're in front of a prospective client, but somehow people forget that when it's words on a page.

Jaimee Maree: That's right. Exactly.

Deb Zahn: But it's the same thing. Every encounter they have with you tells them what it's going to be like to work with you. Tells them who you are, and if you care about them or not. So by all means your website, your landing pages, your social media, whatever it is, needs to do that. But let's start off with the bad version. So what are the common mistakes that folks make when they're writing copy that doesn't convert or doesn't get people to take that action.

Jaimee Maree: Yeah, let's do it. I don't know how long you've got, but people make a whole lot of mistakes. It's absolutely crazy, but that's OK.

One of the biggest mistakes that people do make is that they make it all about themselves and not about the ideal client. So that's rule number one. The other rule is the importance of capturing people's attention very, very quickly, as soon as they see any of your marketing. So the typical rule is that you've got five seconds to grab someone's attention when they arrive on your website, and the reason why this is so this comes down to the headline that you use on the page. And they say that people are five times more likely to read the headline than they are the rest of the copy.

To put that into some perspective, if you're ever spending any advertising, and you say, I've spent $1 to send someone to a website, you've basically spent 80 cents of that money within the first five seconds of them getting to your site. And so if you do that wrong and you then don't get them to move, you don't get them to take them down the page and they leave, that's how important that top section is. And capturing their interest. Peaking that curiosity straightaway. That's one of the most important things.

Tying into that and how to make sure that you really capture someone's attention very quickly, and there's a bit of a thing in the copywriting world and it crosses over with branding. But when people look at being clever versus...What we say clever versus clarity. So a lot of people try to be very clever and this can be quite a bit of a branding thing because it creates something that's memorable. But what happens, and especially when it comes to things like websites and sales pages, or the types of copy that really bring in conversions and leads and sales and things like that, is that you must be clear and you must make it...As soon as someone arrives on the page, you need to try and pique curiosity. You need to make sure that they know that what they're landing on is for them, so you have to be super, super specific.

We're going to talk about ideal clients for a moment, but you have to be super specific that they know that they're in the right place. How you can help them. And then it's an old benefit driven. So there's quite a lot that we need to capture there and unfortunately clever, nine times out of 10, won't do that. Whereas when you're clear and you say exactly what it is that you do, it's benefit driven, so what you do, but in a benefit way that benefits them.

Deb Zahn: Pause there because again, you've got all this Jedi stuff going on, we got to capture it. So benefit versus feature, or benefit versus service. And I know we're getting into what actually works, but describe that. What is the difference between that?

Jaimee Maree: Great. So this is one of the mistakes that's on my list, is that a lot of people write feature driven content rather than benefit driven content. So feature driven content, it's like...What's a really good example? Think about the way Apple markets their products, for example. If you see any of their advertising, you typically will never ever actually see what the specifications of the products are.

Deb Zahn: That's right.

Jaimee Maree: The size of the phone. You do down somewhere on the page for Apple, but in any of their content, they talk about the benefits of what that's going to do, like how the iPhone is a benefit to your life and what you'll be able to capture and the memories that you'll be able to store, and there's so much more to it.

This comes into play no matter what kind of business that you own. So it happens a lot in e-commerce, obviously, but it certainly happens for consultants and coaches and service professionals, where they describe what it is that someone's getting, but they don't describe the benefit of that. And that's where people get stuck all the time, is they get stuck in the nitty gritty, they get stuck in what their service actually is that people don't care about, well they do care about it, but let's just say that they don't. They care about that benefit they're going to get from it.

Deb Zahn: That's right. A good example is strategic planning. So a lot of consultants do strategic planning. I'm one of them. I've certainly done it quite a bit. So first of all, that's just the thing I do. So that's a feature that I offer, is I can show up and help you design strategies. Well, first of all, most people who've been through strategic planning processes hate them because they're awful. So that's not really doing me any favors using that.

Jaimee Maree: No.

Deb Zahn: But it doesn't tell them what's at the other end of that. It sounds like, well, if we want to check that box, this is a person that can check that box. As opposed to that I can help them make sure that they do not get left behind by their competitors or major shifts in the market, and that they have a clear vision for where they're headed and don't have to wake up wondering if they're going to make it or not. It's stuff like that that strategic planning, if done well, does for you. And again, you go on most consultant's websites and it's going to be, I do strategic planning. I do training. I do assessments. And all of that features stuff, none of that is telling them what does that do for them.

Jaimee Maree: Exactly. And that's exactly right because at the end of the day, it depends on who your consultants are trying to reach, what their ultimate goals are, what results that they want, but you're exactly right. What does strategic planning mean to that business, to that company, to that person? What will it allow them to do? What growth will they be able to see? What are you going to take off their plate by actually taking care of this?

Now again, it's very specific to your industry but that's what we've really got to think about. And I think it's really interesting in this space, and I see sometimes this applies to consultants, not always, but I'll just give the example anyway. When we think about copywriting and sometimes especially even writing to corporations or big organizations, it's considering who's making the decision about who's going to actually hire you.

Seth Godin did a really great thing where he said, you need to understand whether you're speaking to the business or the company owner, or you're speaking to someone inside of the business, not the company owner because their needs and their hierarchy of needs of what you actually need to speak to is really, really important. So for someone that works in an organization, things like avoiding risk is actually their biggest need, so whenever they're hiring a consultant or an external provider or things like that, the biggest thing that they care about when they're hiring is making sure that they haven't made a bad decision, that the risk that could come up.

Deb Zahn: So they don't have to become a consultant quickly.

Jaimee Maree: That's right. Exactly, they've made that wrong...Yeah. It's absolutely fascinating. It's things like avoiding hassle, that's the second thing that's most important to them. I think the third is gaining praise. So that's what's really important to them. The next one's gaining power. And the next one is actually having fun.

When we're thinking about those five things, and who's the decision maker, again, for consultants that'll be really different. But when you're reaching out to someone to make this particular decision, you've got to speak to all of those things in your copy. How are you taking away the risk of them hiring you? How are you taking away the hassle from their day-to-day life? Because if, as a consultant, you're going to come in and you're going to make their life harder by making them attend meetings that they don't need to attend, fill out forms that they just don't have time to fill out, so they're the things that they're thinking about. So that's something that if you're not talking to that in the copy, and you're just saying, this is what we do, you're missing all of these points that are important in their decision-making process in order to hire you.

Deb Zahn: I can imagine if it's a when I do consulting, I primarily engage with the CEO. They have different things. They're thinking about legacy. They're thinking about aspirational things. They're thinking about their bottom line. They're thinking about things that somebody who's somewhere else in the organization doesn't. So I got to know who I'm writing for.

Jaimee Maree: Exactly. And that's exactly right. If you're talking to someone at the top of that organization, yes, what they want is going to be completely different. And that's why one of the biggest mistakes that we see in copywriting comes down to not understanding your ideal client.

I didn't mention it earlier, but I have had my digital marketing business for almost 11 years and what we see time and time again, is that businesses, consultants, everyone does it. They don't want to choose who their ideal client is and they don't want to get to know them inside and out.

I can guarantee you that from a digital marketing perspective and certainly from a copywriting perspective and from a business perspective from an offering perspective.

Deb Zahn: Every perspective.

Jaimee Maree: Entire way down the line. Unless you know who your ideal client is, your marketing will not resonate. You will try to talk to everyone, but you talk to no one at the same time. And people are really scared to do this, and I understand why. They can be scared to limit their market. They're afraid that if they niche down into a particular audience, then they're going to lose out on money or lose out. And certainly in the consulting world sometimes you're going from project to project sometimes, and you're afraid of cutting off, but what you actually do when you do niche and you do find your ideal client, your marketing works a hell of a lot better for you, and you become much more a sought after expert when you can speak to their problems and challenges because you know and understand this ideal client. You know what's going on in their mind. You know exactly what's happening for them and how to get them results. When you speak broadly, I've seen so many marketing campaigns fail.

Deb Zahn: Because it's not inspiring to say, I do a lot of stuff. From copywriting, talking to a prospect, any of that, I can do anything you want. One, they don't believe it, nor should they. And two, I then have no idea if you can help me. As opposed to, I can do this very specific thing that helps you achieve these results.

Jaimee Maree: Exactly. Which is exactly what they want. People want to be seen. They want to be understood. They want to feel like that you care. And the more that you can understand them and tell them exactly, you've got this problem, I can help you in this way. And you only really understand that specific problem when you have niched down and you have that person in your mind who you're speaking to.

We've worked on so many different campaigns for some very big clients, from very small clients, and it never changes that if...We actually won't work with a client unless they know their ideal client because their marketing just won't work, and we have pride in what we do, we put a lot of effort into what we do, we think it's very transformational, what we do, and so that's a really important thing.

Deb Zahn: I'm going to brag about you a little bit because I know you take it to another level because I've worked with you, is you not only want to hear me say it, but you are wise enough not to trust me and my perceptions. You actually talk to people who are my ideal clients so that you can get...And I tell consultants that too, I'm like, don't just run off and start saying things, actually talk to people, listen to the emotional language that they're using, listen to what they care about, listen to what drives them crazy. That's how you sell what you do.

Jaimee Maree: Exactly. And this is the thing that we talk about, and we say that the best copy is actually stolen. And we don't say it's stolen from your competitors because they probably have absolutely no idea what they're doing, and that would be unethical. But what we do is we say that we steal it from your ideal clients in opening up these conversations. And so we always try to bypass the owner wherever we're writing copy because you have your own bias. You have unconscious competence as to what you're really good at that you're not even aware of, that sometimes you can lose that perspective of where the actual ideal client is at. So wherever possible, whenever our clients, so I'd say probably 90% of the time, we really pushed this with clients, is opening up those conversations.

I know that we do that with you and speaking to people because at the moment you can get in every mind. So the thing with copy is, you're trying to enter the conversation that's already going on inside their mind. So when you open up these conversations with people and they talk to you about, so what is going on in your life? What are you thinking about when you wake up in the morning? What is causing you frustration? What is it that you want solved? Because almost every product or service that you'll ever have on the planet is solving a problem, so that's what you need to talk about, that's what you need to understand, and need to use their language. I can't even tell you, and certainly when we wrote copy for you, we would literally have the interviews, we transcribed them, we'd pull out sometimes the phrases, the words, that your ideal clients know so well, is what we use and we use throughout the copy because then we have the benefit of feeling like you're getting inside my mind. How did you do that? You obviously know me so well.

That's one of the biggest influences when someone makes a buying decision. Do they understand me? Do they get me? Do they care? And that's what opening up those conversations do. So whether you do it yourself when you interview, or you get a third party to do it, I highly, highly recommend it.

Deb Zahn: I do too.

Jaimee Maree: Surveys are one thing, but actual conversations are much better because people sometimes think surveys take too much time.

Deb Zahn: Because you're going to get the nuance. I always tell people, surveys give you a sense of magnitude, but they don't give you the nuance. They don't give you the language that you actually need. And truthfully, when people are answering surveys they might tell you something's important to them, but when you're actually talking to them and you scratch a little bit at that surface, and then everything comes out and suddenly it's, no, no, no, this is what actually is driving you crazy. It's not that.

Jaimee Maree: Exactly. We have our own bias, whether it's business or whatever it is, that we think we know the answer, but often we don't. Opening up those conversations is so valuable.

Deb Zahn: Let's talk about if folks did it well, if you could wave your magic wand and say, and now this is the effective way to do it, what would you see?

Jaimee Maree: There's quite a few things that make up successful copywriting. When we talk about psychology, we actually pull a lot of our inspiration from Robert Cialdini and what those factors are when it comes to influence. And so we put this out through all of our copy. He has seven now. So there were six but he added a seventh. And it runs through that. This really makes a highly effective copy because it's basically, what do people need in order to be influenced? And that's what we really want to do with copy, is that we want to be able to influence them in order to take the action that we want them to take. So when we look at the best copy, it has these six principles, we'll say seven, infused into the copy.

The first one that we talk about is social proof. So that's what I really, really want to see in copy, whether it's on your website or whether it is on a sales page. So I mean, social proof really comes down to things like, what are other people saying about you? So these are things like testimonials, they're reviews because people typically look to others who behave in a certain way to know that they can trust you in order to make the decision. So that's one thing that really, really impacts people on deciding to trust you, is how much social proof you have. Things like reviews and testimonials. So that's a non-negotiable. I always want to see that.

The next part of it is authority. So do you have authority in order to actually be doing this service that you're offering to your clients? So this could be the experience that you have. There's lots of different things. So whenever we look at authority, we'll try and find out, has a client, what logos can we include on the website? So although that's not text, we always think about as soon as someone arrives on this page, we always try to say about five seconds, so what do we want to show? So if applicable will include logos that people might be able to recognize. If anyone has ever been in the media, always include those kinds of icons.

Then impact metrics as well. Because not everyone has all of those types of things, but they're just things that will add to authority. Impact metrics of things like, again, how much experience, what kind of results have you been able to generate? I think when we, this is from memory, but I think for part of the sales page we wrote for you, I mean, I think it was 100 million…

Deb Zahn: $10 million in consulting business, over 100 clients that I've worked with, but very specific things that let people know I'm not brand new. I actually know how to do what I do.

Jaimee Maree: That's right. Exactly. Yeah, sorry. I got my stats wrong.

Deb Zahn: You were thinking because I've raised over $100 million dollars for my clients.

Jaimee Maree: There we go. Yes, that's correct.

Deb Zahn: That's where you got the big number.

Jaimee Maree: Yes. I've got a picture in my mind of before. But anyway, yes. So but as soon as someone arrives there, this is establishing authority. It is part of the psychology of what will influence someone to make a decision. Does this person have some authority? Whether it's years' experience, anything that we can gather to show there's someone that we can trust. The next one is reciprocity. So this depends…

Deb Zahn: I love that one. That's one of my favorite ones.

Jaimee Maree: Exactly. And this is a huge influence. And we can see this in so many different ways, but obviously it's a principle that once someone does something for you, you feel somewhat obligated, it's human nature to return the favor. And this comes up when we do free content, when we do podcasts like this, when we give away something on our website, when we do content marketing and we lead with value. When you lead with value first, rather than just asking for the sale, there's that drive in people that will say, hey, this person has done this, this person has actually helped me before they've required anything from me, that then has an impact on them.

Deb Zahn: What are they going to do once I give them money? It's going to be even better.

Jaimee Maree: Exactly. That's right. It's like they say, that it's almost like a bank that when you're doing things of value you're putting money in someone else's bank, and then at some point you'll be able to withdraw that.

Deb Zahn: I love it.

Jaimee Maree: Then we've got liking. So the more you like someone, the more likely it is that you'll be persuaded by them. So that's really, when we think about copywriting, we always try to make our copywriting quite conversational. We make it normal, not so formal because the more that you can build out that like factor, do I trust this person, does this feel good, that's then when they're more likely to sign up or to buy from you.

Deb Zahn: What's interesting is I have actually seen consultants' websites who seem mad at you. They'll start by saying here's what I don't do, as if they're scolding you. And I get it because they're trying to set boundaries and that's fine. This is not where to do that. It's better to be affirmative because you're going to be more likable, as opposed to now they're going to think of you as the person who says no all the time.

Jaimee Maree: That's right. Exactly. And there's definitely a place for that, and it's OK to have that. For example, we often, if appropriate, we'll say who this is for and who this is not for. And that's a way to be able to filter people out because I know that there can be a reason to do that, but we've got to do a lot of work before that to get that feeling of trust rather than just be on the back foot and be like, whoa, OK.

Deb Zahn: Exactly. It wouldn't be on the first page above the fold.

Jaimee Maree: No, yeah, exactly. We don't want to say exit stage left if you're this, as soon as someone arrives on your page, that's for sure.

Then we've got commitment consistency, which is all just about human needs for people to be consistent. And these are things of the commitment that we can try and get people to make throughout the copy as well, and these are micro-commitments that we take people throughout the page. And the way that we weave those through then...This sounds a little bit of a complicated one as to how you make it happen, but every step that we get people to make from a copywriting perspective, the first commitment, whether it's micro-commitments, we ask them a question, we get them to say yes, we get them to click on a button.

Deb Zahn: Do you know the origin of that? I actually do.

Jaimee Maree: I feel like I do, but it's escaped me.

Deb Zahn: It's not good, but it's OK because you're using your powers for good. It's actually a brainwashing technique. It's essentially accumulating yeses, and if you can get someone to...They also use it with getting folks to confess to things. If you can get the first yes, like, do you want a soda? Yes. It's easier to get the next yes. It's easier to get the next yes. And that's actually where it comes from, is brainwashing.

Jaimee Maree: That's where it comes from. It's so funny because I mean, yeah, everything that you just said after brainwashing is what I know. But I guess that's the thing, it's brainwashing, right?

Deb Zahn: But in a good way because you're trying to help people.

Jaimee Maree: In a good way. That's right. And that's what we say, especially from copywriting, we use our superpowers for good, not evil.

Deb Zahn: That's right.

Jaimee Maree: Because really, I mean, you would talk about this a lot with sales, it's just positioning a solution to a problem that someone has. 

But we're brainwashing them, I guess, to get there.

Deb Zahn: Brain cleansing, we'll call it.

Jaimee Maree: That's right. And then we've got two more. So there's scarcity. So when you believe something is in short supply, you want it more. So that's something that we like to include wherever possible, whether that's limited timeframes for things, limited spots for certain things. Now you never ever want to use fake scarcity, so if it's not appropriate, you don't want to include it.

Deb Zahn: Thank you for saying that.

Jaimee Maree: It's really not appropriate. You lose a lot of trust. It is a psychological influencer, so we certainly want to because human behavior is typically to procrastinate, so unless we actually give them that scarcity, that's why we use it, but absolutely not to use it when it's not real. Whenever, and especially for consultants, it can certainly be used because they do a lot of things, not that we necessarily want to do this all the time, but their time is involved a lot of the time, and that is a finite resource. So whether you can only take limited clients at a time, you've only got limited spots that you can fit into your calendar, these are really small things, but they're true. You can only take on a certain number of people at a time.

So include that because it does a lot for positioning when you position yourself as the limited resource that you've got to offer. So you can do that, but yeah, no fake scarcity.

Deb Zahn: Love it.

Jaimee Maree: The final one, which is the new one, is unity. Which we've always known from a copywriting perspective, but what this is, is that when you've got a shared identity with a person that is influencing you, you've got more chance of influencing the influencee. So this is why we always try and think through with our clients, what have you got in common with your ideal clients? Wherever this is appropriate.

It can come down to lots of different things. It can come down to being in that same position before. So it could be like being in corporate before, or, I mean, it can come down to things like race and ethnicity, family, but where we talk about it was, have you been your ideal client before? If so, talk to that. Say I've been where you are before. This is what I experienced. This is what's going on.

Deb Zahn: One thing that I've seen sometimes consultants will make a mistake about, particularly if they're brand new and they don't have a lot of actual consulting projects that they can talk about, is they're hesitant to talk about their past work as something they can draw upon in their consultancy. And my point is always, that's a perfect way to show them you've been in their shoes, that you had to make things work when you weren't parachuted in and you didn't have to deal with all the messiness, you were in the messiness having to make things work and you did. That is a wonderful thing to share with clients, that you solved it when you were in their shoes.

Jaimee Maree: Absolutely. And that's having that insight that you're able to go, look, I know what we're going to have to go through. I know the process of being in that and that messiness. That's such a huge part for the majority and to talk to because that person that you're going in to help wants to know that you understand the position that they're in when you're coming in to help them.

Deb Zahn: That's wonderful. Now I would want to say one last thing and this is just so juicy we could go on and on with this. I just love it.

Jaimee Maree: We could.

Deb Zahn: But one of the things that I think folks have to consider in their copy but also as they're talking because what you say and what's in your copy should actually relate very closely to each other, is they forget that the results that you can help them achieve are both tangible and intangible. And the intangible is often emotional. Can you talk a little bit about how, without being manipulative, it's important to touch upon the emotions of the folks that are trying to buy your services?

Jaimee Maree: Absolutely. So we talk about this from an emotions-first logic perspective of how people make decisions. People will always typically buy on emotion and justify it with logic, and so wherever we feel that there is a...When we talk about the tangible and intangible and the emotional side of things, we are really talking about very high level outcomes that they would be able to experience that are really emotional to them.

This can be in lots of different ways, from something that could be life-changing. The impacts that it's going to have on their life ongoing. It's all of the things that actually really matter to someone at a really high level that we really want to tap into. The things that motivate people, the things that are much more important than the actual result or outcome, but what that actually means to their lives.

Deb Zahn: That's right.

Jaimee Maree: Does that make sense?

Deb Zahn: It does. I actually did this two days ago when I was talking to a client about a scope of something we were going to do, and I was describing what outcomes it would achieve, and I said, but one of the things I wanted to achieve, I said this to the CEO, is that when you wake up at 2:00 in the morning and say, “I don't know what's happening with this,” I want you to be able to answer that within five minutes. And I don't want you to text your other leaders and wake them up.

That was a double emotional whammy, which is she's like, “I can go back to sleep then?” Yes. And everybody else said, “She's not going to wake me up. Great.” And that's what closed the deal, is saying, that's the intangible things that you're actually going to get out of it.

Jaimee Maree: Well, exactly. And this, and I don't know exactly how you would provide, what solution you're providing to that, but whether it's an easy way that they can get access to the questions that are going to pop in their mind, whether that's because you're tracking something online or all the information is reflected online, this could be in many different ways, I'm not sure how you'd do that. But this is exactly the type of thing that...What does this mean to that day-to-day person's life?

When we were talking before about people, that it's really important that you remove hassle, you can talk about the fact that we want them clocking off at 5:00 at night in order to go home and have dinner with their kids and with their family. These are the types of things that we want to be doing, if we know that people are working way too hard. And you're going to reduce the amount of time, the time that they're going to save, but really linking that to, what does that actually mean for their life? Does that mean that they close their laptop at 5:00 at the end of the day? Does that mean that over the weekends, they're not checking emails because everyone is on top of what it is that they need to do?

What is that impact on their life? Are they able to go on more? We go as deep as saying, spend more time getting time with the people that you love. Go hiking. Enjoy yoga. Whatever you actually want to do with your time because I'm going to get you back some of your time.

Deb Zahn: That's right. And consultants do that. We do that.

Jaimee Maree: Exactly. And so that's the thing, it is the hassle that you're saving people, the time that you're doing it. People on the surface you can say, I'm going to save you time and you're like, great, what does that mean? And what does that look like? And what does that mean to my life? That's almost where we're like, not that time is a feature, but we want to attach the benefit to that. What does that mean to their workload? What does that mean to their stress levels? What does that mean? What does that mean to their relationship? What does that mean to their bank balance? What does that mean to being able to go on holidays? What does that mean to spend more time with their kids? That's what you were talking about before. I think you articulated it really well. I need to be on it.

Deb Zahn: That's why you have to know your ideal client, so you can actually answer those questions. So we've come full circle.

Jaimee Maree: Exactly. That's right.

Deb Zahn: I want to make a plug for getting help with copywriting. Because here's the thing, I'm a really good writer and obviously you've heard me articulate things that suggest that I understand some of these things. And yet when I tried to write my own copy, I don't know what happened. I felt like I got taken over by an alien who didn't know any of this and everything ended up being really boring and feature-driven and all of that stuff. So let's say somebody wants to get some help from you, as I did. Where can they find you?

Jaimee Maree: Look, I absolutely love this because people often think, and it's something that we deal with every day, is that people can write words, they feel like they can do it themselves. They can be an excellent writer. But copywriting is a whole different thing. I actually got a testimonial, which blows me away, from the producer of Pretty Woman. So we worked with Gary Goldstein. And his testimonial literally said, (he's produced many other things as well), but it literally said, I'm a writer, not a copywriter.

I think that that is literally what it really comes down to. There is a very big difference writing takes on a page and copywriting and having that influence with people.

We do a lot of our work over at So S-A-V-V-Y, copy, C-O-P-Y, dot com. I mean, there's free resources on the site as well if people just want to take a look. We've got an ultimate checklist on there that can help you actually go through your own copy and realize what you're missing so you know what to add in. And we also do, at this time going to air, we do free copy writing reviews as well. So where we will take a look at what it is that you've got, go through all of our systems, and identify what you're really missing and how to boost conversions.

Deb Zahn: That's great. And I did that, and it was phenomenal. So I would encourage anyone else too. It was humbling, but in a good way because I care more about being effective than I do about being right. So that's good. And so you do all of this wonderful work to make people's copy a thing of beauty and to get them the actual action that they want to get. What do you do to bring balance to your own life? However you define that?

Jaimee Maree: One of these things that I brought into my life a couple of years ago is actually taking myself out on dates.

Deb Zahn: I love that.

Jaimee Maree: I mean, look, lockdown's been a little bit hard on that, but I do fun dates now. I will do things, whether it's if I can get to a restaurant, I will take myself out to a restaurant. I often take myself to wineries, and I just take a book, have some wine, have some cheese. So that's really what I do. I try and do so much self-care now, it's actually my biggest priority in my life, to take that time to slow down. Because I do my best work with my team when I'm far more relaxed.

I live by the beach, which that's not so great at the moment. It's a little bit cold, but I take myself out for walks. Self dates are definitely the thing that I do all the time.

Deb Zahn: I love that. And you sometimes show what you do on Instagram, which is great.

Jaimee Maree: I do.

Deb Zahn: You have very cute dogs with you. We will have information about how folks can find you in the show notes, but Jaimee, thank you so much. And you know how much I appreciate what you've done for me, so I was so delighted to have you on so you could share it with everyone else.

Jaimee Maree: Well, thank you very, very much for having me. I'm so excited for everything that is coming to you and your audience, what you offer in this podcast is incredible and I get so much value out of it. So thank you very much for having me.

Deb Zahn: You got it.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Craft of Consulting Podcast. I want to ask you to do actually three things. If you enjoyed this episode or if you've enjoyed any of my other ones, hit subscribe. I got a lot of other great guests that are coming up and a lot of other great content and I don't want you to miss anything. But the other two things that I'm going to ask you to do is, one is, if you have any comments, so if you have any suggestions or any kind of feedback that will help make this podcast more helpful to more listeners, please include those.

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So as always, you can go and get more wonderful information and tools at Thanks so much. I will talk to you on the next episode. Bye-bye.

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