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Episode 134: Crafting Persuasive Messages to Get Consulting Clients—with Juan Guerra

Deb Zahn: Hi, I want to welcome you to this week's episode of the Craft of Consulting podcast. In this episode, we're going to get into how you craft a persuasive message, in particular, your unique story. Your unique persuasive message that is going to get clients wanting to hire you. And to do it in a way that's not salesy but very deliberate so that you're actually persuading them to hire you so that you can help them do the things that they need to get done. And I brought on a fantastic expert at this. Juan Guerra is with Skills of Life. He's the founder of a company that helps people craft what those persuasive messages are and the way that they're going to tell their story to attract and secure clients and, ultimately build, the business that they have. So much great stuff in this, let's get started.

Deb Zahn: Hi, I want to welcome to my show today, Juan Guerra. Juan, welcome to the show.

Juan Guerra: Thanks for having me, Deb.

Deb Zahn: So let's start off. Tell my listeners what you do.

Juan Guerra: Yeah. So I am an entrepreneur based in Vienna, Austria who's passionate about storytelling. And so I work with entrepreneurs and also event organizers, startup accelerators, helping them simplify their message. See how they can turn their story into a persuasive message that allows them to inspire their audience, make an impact, and grow their influence and business. At the end that's the ultimate goal. And so that's a big thing about what we do here. On the side, I have a production company where we started doing virtual events about three years ago and I am able then to merge the two and help those clients master their virtual communication skills and help them create an event that positions their brand and business in their industry in their market.

Deb Zahn: That's wonderful. And we are going to talk about exactly that persuasive message and how you truly get to that. And, in particular, how you get to it also when you're doing the presentation. So I'm going to ask somewhat, four questions at the beginning, which I know you know the answer to...which is, there's a lot of consultants who are out there or even small consulting firms, mid-size who are just relying on their expertise. Relying on their existing clients and they don't have virtual events or presentations as part of their marketing mix. Why would you encourage them to include those?

Juan Guerra: The biggest thing that I see is that when you organize a virtual event, now you're not just cold emailing somebody. It's like, “Hey, do you want to buy my stuff?” Instead, you're making it about them. “Look, we are making an event where you are going to learn. You are going to grow.” And so already you make it about them and that makes them come to you. Then by having a virtual event, the fact that it's live allows you to interact and connect with them in real-time. Now you're learning about your audience. You're positioning yourself because of the content that you're sharing. Maybe some other speakers that then you can rub your brand off and you can also take advantage of their audience by making them promote your event.

And so an event it's...I'm not talking about the 60-minute webinar. I'm talking about a virtual event, somewhere around three hours, two and a half, where you can really bring people to you. You can help them overcome a slight problem that would allow them to become the perfect client for your product and service. And so there you're adding authority, you're showcasing how you can help them, they're coming to you...It's just I can talk about it for the whole show because it's really powerful. It's a really powerful tool that makes it about them. And that's the best part that you're not coming here now to sell them something with a cold message or something like this.

Deb Zahn: Oh yeah. And I will tell you, I've been at really good versions and really bad versions of that, or I've been a presenter at other people's events. It runs the gambit between people who got up and just wanted to talk about what they wanted to say, so it was about them. Or it was all over the place. So I left going, “Well, I liked that on., I didn't like that one, but I wasn't really sure why I was here.” So we're going to talk a little bit about, have a plan before you start to do things, but let's also dig in a little bit to the persuasive message part because one of the common mistakes that I see consultants fall into is they think, look, I have my services. I know I'm good at what I do. I'm just going to tell people what those things are and boom, that's how I'm going to get business. And then they get surprised when that doesn't happen or it doesn't happen reliably. So why does having a persuasive message matter? And that's the most leading question I'm going to do today.

Juan Guerra: Doesn't matter if you have the best product in the world, if your audience, if your listener cannot see value, if they cannot see how it helps them, if it doesn't connect with what they think they need, you're going to struggle, there is no way you're going to be able to resonate.

And so the first thing that we do, whether we are working with a client, putting together the concept for a virtual event, or I'm one-on-one on developing the message for the business, the first thing is to really become aware of what is it that they desire, your audience? What is it that they're trying to do? What is it that they desire? What is it that they want and what fake beliefs do they have about your product or service? Because then with your message, what you do is that you're targeting the fake beliefs so that they come to those aha moments where you're able to shape their mindset and prime them for the sale. And so the whole purpose of the story is to move them emotionally so that they by themselves see the value in your product and come to the realization that they need it.

Deb Zahn: So you packed so much in those sentences that I want to unpack a little bit because there was so much juicy, good stuff in that. So the first thing that really stuck for me is, you have to think about what their false beliefs are. And so when I think for consultants that could be that consultants will just hand you the last product that they just sold 20 times. They'll steal your watch and tell you what time it is. Those are all the negative connotations. But if you're not sure at a deep enough level, how do you get to what those false beliefs are? How would you know what those are?

Juan Guerra: Well, actually they tell you. When we go to the doctor because we have pain and we say, we automatically diagnose ourselves, right? And we say, ah, this is probably my shoulder or something like this. Well the clients will tell you, I just need X. I just need Y. And you, as the expert, then you go through your process of trying to understand if that's really the reason that they're struggling. So because they tell you, oh, I just need Y that automatically is the fake belief that they think that they only need that and they don't see the relationship between what they really need.

Now the problem is when we are stubborn sometimes and we feel like, “Oh, I know what they need and then we try to sell them that.” But people will buy what they think they need not what you think they need. And so you need to sell them what they think they need and sprinkle what you know is going to help them. And so I was at an event recently and it's not like you're going to sell them a steak and then give them broccoli. It is not like that.

Deb Zahn: Not more than once.

Juan Guerra: You sell them the steak. Yeah. But you know they need the broccoli, so you sell them the steak with the broccoli sauce, in that sense.

Deb Zahn: I like that. And you also talked about that that's how you craft then a story around that. So say a little bit about...Because it's more than just a message. I love that you talk about storytelling related to this. So how does that, once you understand what they think they want, once you understand what they really need, once you understand sort of who they are and how they tick, that message becomes a story. What does that process look like?

Juan Guerra: Well, before we can start putting that story together, then we need to figure out what is it that we want?

Deb Zahn: There you go, skipped that.

Juan Guerra: We need to start by the end. What is the feeling or action that we want the person to take the moment we stop talking? Like that's such a missed step, but without that, everything that we do has no meaning because what's our destination, right? And so once we understand who we're talking with, what they desire, what fake beliefs, then we need to understand what it is that I'm trying to achieve with this interaction. And we need to be aware of context. One thing is when we're having a conversation at a networking event, for example, obviously, you're not going to make a sale right there. So your goal should be, let's have a one-on-one with this person, right? So you have your sales process that you make the big strategy, and then you have the steps that you push that person through your funnel.

And so you need to be aware of what is the overarching strategy and what is the context of that step, that interaction in which you are. And you create content according to each step. So based on that we know that the goal would be to have more time with that person and so my message needs to create interest by default.

And now we can go and then start putting stuff together. So the next step would be looking into your own story and seeing what kind of experiences do you have and how can you adapt that so that your listener can see value. And you always need to come back on the question of why is it important for them? And I think part of a struggle that we have is we try to build value for ourselves to showcase our expertise, but we just end up bragging about what we do.

One of the things that I teach people in our course is that the best way to showcase your expertise is by telling them how do you know the problem exists. And so you, as an expert, you know what they desire. You know what they're looking for. You know what you need. And so you can relate to that type of audience and say, from my experience from working for 10 years with X, Y, and Z, I've been able to tell that one of the biggest problems entrepreneurs have is the fact that they struggle to simplify their message. They're so deep into it, they have the expert curse, and therefore we have created this program. You see, I told you that I work for 10 years with entrepreneurs without having to brag about what I do. And it's a perfect segue that allows you to lead into what your services are.

Deb Zahn: I love that. I've done that where it's almost the casual lead up to, I just sprinkled in some authority so that you know that there's a good reason that you're having a conversation with me but now I'm bringing it back to you.

Juan Guerra: Yeah.

Deb Zahn: Oh, I just love that.

Juan Guerra: And that also works if you're starting. If you have no experience. And so in case you don't have experience, you can always relate to what is it that you believe in? What is it that you're trying to achieve? And so because I believe in Y, I notice X problem, and that's why we do what we do.

Deb Zahn: That's great. I like how you might do different things for marketing and outreach. Each might have a different goal because the context is different so you have to know what those are. I'd love to take one example and kind of walk through that. So let's say you're going to do a presentation. Maybe it's part of your networking event. Maybe it's part of someone else's event, but you're going to create that and in that you need to have the persuasive messages that achieve what the aims are. What I have seen most folks do is they just start creating a slide deck of everything that they want to say. And you know when font keeps getting smaller and smaller until no one can read it because they just have so much they want to say. What do you say to do instead that's really about that persuasion in that storytelling?

Juan Guerra: I think Nancy Duarte from Duarte Inc, she calls them Goku slides where you just like create a document and just send it. Well, one of the biggest misconceptions is that the slides don't need to deliver the presentation for you. They are there to support you. And so what we work on is that we have three key messages. And so you should be able to communicate just three messages. Take that listener on a journey. You know what the fake belief is, you know the action that they want to take at the end and so you do a bit of backward planning. And you think about, OK, what do they need to know to do this step? Then you move one step earlier, and what do they need to know to lead to the next step? And we do three main ideas.

Now you have a structure that is building on each point. And then at the end, once you know what you're going to say, you can go online and look for some pictures that support your message. There's different learning styles. Some people learn visually, some people learn by listening or by doing or by reading. And so you want to be able to cement your message, reinforce it with your slides, but the last thing that you want is people reading your slides while you're talking. You're the one who has the authority, the knowledge, they should be listening to you. And so a rule of thumb is no more than five words in a slide.

Deb Zahn: Wow.

Juan Guerra: And then one idea per slide, also.

Deb Zahn: I feel like you just put everybody on a diet. Just to go from 50 down to that. That's pretty remarkable.

Juan Guerra: Yeah. And you could estimate at least 30 seconds per slide up to two minutes easily for a slide. Yeah.

Deb Zahn: Yeah. I usually go by two minutes per slide because people might ask questions. They might, depending on how you set up the engagement and that's the other thing I see that people don't time it out so that they have a 15-minute presentation with 50 slides. And there's more than five words on each of those. So you start with conceptualizing so that you have a clear plan and a clear path for the journey you're taking them on. And then you soberly put together something that appeals to different types of learners and doesn't cause them to just read your slides and ignore you. What happens next?

Juan Guerra: Then I go back and cut half of it. Because we are victims of the expert curse. And so as we are putting everything together. We have only three points, but those points start getting bigger and bigger and bigger because we feel that so many things are important. As we're putting it together it's like, oh, they also need to know about this and they need to know about that and they need to...And then you need to take a step back and say, what do they really need to know about? What is really important? Because since we're experts, we feel that they need to know many things, but for the person that is listening, and this is part of the expert's curse, is that you assume that then the basic average level of knowledge of everybody else is actually higher than it really is.

And so we really need to take the steps back and simplify that content because otherwise, it's just going to fly by. You're not going to be able to connect. You're not going to be able to persuade anybody. So that's why I go back and really clean the content again. So I'm constantly in that process, what else can I take away? How can I communicate this, that if I don't say this thing, it would really lose its meaning? Like people would really not be able to follow the presentation. So constantly that process. And then as I rehearse, this is the other thing. Many people decide just to wing it. Oh, I know my stuff, I'm too nervous, I'm just going to jump in there and just share like make it casual because I get too stressed and then they just get lost.

Deb Zahn: Yikes. Yeah, that's a train wreck waiting to happen. So how would you suggest folks prepare? Because there's obviously a lot of different ways that people would do it. What do you tend to see as the most effective?

Juan Guerra: There are a couple of things, especially with visualization exercises and I'll go a bit deeper into this. But what I notice is that there is a preparation process. And it is that as the person starts getting ready, the tension starts building up in their mind. And then you start doubting. You start getting more stress. But what happens actually is that it's a bit of a curve, as you start overcoming and you're solving those questions, you start getting calmer because now you're able to feel more comfortable with the content.

And so what happens is that normally people just don't plan enough time to prepare. They start preparing too late and then they're able to just go through their presentation two times. They don't dominate the slides, I mean you need to memorize them. You need to be able to click on it and just switch and just like, don't even look back. You need to have the confidence that your slide change and that the slide that is behind you is really the one that should be there supporting your message.

Deb Zahn: So you got to Ted Talk it.

Juan Guerra: Exactly, exactly. And so visualization exercises are really good. If you're able to get pictures of the venue, if you're able to visit the venue in advance, that's important. Also to talk to people in the audience before your presentation, that's really helpful. You get to meet one or two people, and then when you're on the stage, you can address them. You can even call them by name. And so it makes you more relatable, it calms you down. Find somebody who's smiling in the audience as well and get that person's energy so that you can communicate that on the stage.

Try not to hide behind a podium. That's the worst thing that you can do. You're hiding, you start feeling that pressure of the audience, and very important is, don't take the body language of the audience as actual feedback on your presentation, right? Like if you see people with their arms crossed, it could be that the room is cold. It doesn't have to be that they don't believe what you're saying.

You have prepared a presentation, go along with what you have planned because that's what you feel more comfortable with. You need to own it. And then what you do is the way that you can adapt to the feedback is you ask, do you have any questions? Is there something that is not connecting? And that way you can navigate the field a little bit. But you have a plan and stick with it, go along with it. Own it. Embrace it. You're the expert after all. That's why they call you to be on the stage in front of them. It's because you have something that they see value in, that they see that their audience is going to benefit from you. And so you go and enjoy it.

Deb Zahn: Yeah. Well and a couple of things. When we talked before I said that I always, when I practice, if nothing else I try and nail my opening because I know that's when I'm at the height of nervousness and if I can get past that then, and I don't stumble at the beginning, it's easier. And you had some feedback on that which is that could also get you in trouble. What did you tell me?

Juan Guerra: Definitely knowing your first sentence helps like crazy because it just gets the momentum going. But for me, the thing that I found challenging was that at the same time, if you forget one word here and there, it can really make you stumble. And that's part of why I always tell all the students, do not write it down. Do not write your presentation down.

Deb Zahn: Oh, scripting it. Oh, goodness no.

Juan Guerra: Not at all. Like if you forget one word, you're going to stumble all the way down. Just make an outline with the keywords. What is each point about? What's your ultimate goal? And think about the story that you want to tell about that point. And that's it, that way also makes it different for you every time that you present because your presentation shouldn't be fully changing all the time. Like at the end you have a message, and you know what works and so actually it should just be improving. And so with time you will fully dominate it and you know what is the key point that you want to get across at a certain part of your presentation especially if your slides don't work. You need to know it inside out that you're able to complete it.

Deb Zahn: That's great. And so let's say everybody takes your advice, which they should. Their presentation, they knock it out of the water. They're smiling. There are tears. There's whatever it is you want to see, good tears hopefully that you see in the audience. Then what? What do you do with that experience? Or what do you do with that content that you've now created or those connections you've now made?

Juan Guerra: So one of the biggest pitfalls that I see from people presenting is that at the end of the presentation, they don't have a call to action. And it's more like, well, here's my email, yeah go to my website if you can give me some feedback. Like who does that? Nobody goes there. So what you should do is actually create an outline or some kind of next step from your presentation? If somebody's interested, how can they continue building on what you're saying? You have reached a lot of people. You have positioned yourself as the authority, don't miss the chance out. So you can easily create what is called a lead generation, PDF file. It could have five pages or maybe a minicourse or some kind of video, some kind of key content that builds on what you have said so that they can go to that website and you can collect those emails. And now you can have a conversation. You can connect with them and then possibly turn them into clients.

Deb Zahn: Yeah. I had someone who offered a document that had more value than what he presented and then wisely had a quick case study at the end, which of course is how you get from the no to the trust part because now he's slipped in some social proof. And I thought, well-played sir, well played. But you're right. Most often I've seen it is, yeah if you want to reach me, you can reach me here so it's sort of a call to action. But you're now making me the audience member do all of the work to figure out what I should do next and the most helpful thing you can do for me is to help guide me there.

Juan Guerra: Exactly. And one way is to reward you for taking that step. It could be a special offer. It could be like for the next two days, this is what's happening but something that those that now have connected with you...Because at the end, we are different people and some people are going to resonate with you, some people will not, but some people will be attracted to working with you and they will want to get more content. And so you need to make it easy for them. That's part of you as the expert, as the guide. Then you need to make it easy for them by showing them what is the next step and by showing the next step, you lower the risk.

Deb Zahn: That's great.

Juan Guerra: And so it's easier for them to come to you.

Deb Zahn: Now you've also through this process developed, a persuasive message, you've developed a story around who you are and what your business is, and what the value of this is. A presentation is just one part of delivering that in the right receptive market. How does that persuasive message and that story then get used beyond just, and now I gave a presentation.

Juan Guerra: Yeah. Actually, you just repeat that everywhere. One of the things that I see is that people feel that because I told it once, then that's it I'm done. I need to create a whole new thing.

Deb Zahn: I said it.

Juan Guerra: Yeah. I said it, that's it. And no. Now you know what works and what doesn't. You improve it and you keep repeating that everywhere. And so what you should do is, is the same message. The same idea, but then adapt it to different situations and different lengths of time. And so you could have a two-line sentence on your signature that people get to know why they should contact you and what can you do for them. You could have your one-liner when you have a networking event, you can even put that one-liner on the back of your business card. You can have it on your website, under the fold. You could have it on your LinkedIn profile so when you comment on somebody's message, it shows there your one-liner, what you can do for them.

Deb Zahn: That's brilliant.

Juan Guerra: And so you just take that piece of content and put it everywhere so that everybody knows what you do. Because this is the other thing, if you're doing too many things when we meet somebody the first thing that we're trying to figure out is, “How can this person help me? For what problem should I call you for? How can you help me get out of my obstacle? With what obstacle should I call you?”

And you see it, normally when...Like this is happening from the back of time, there's a reason why people's last names are coming from their professions or the place where they're from. Because that way we can connect them with something related to them. And today has to do with our professions. It's like, this is the lawyer, this is the YouTube influencer. We try to put those labels because we can understand how I can file you in my head. “When should I call you? When am I going to need you?” And so you need to find what is the one thing that you can position yourself for that makes it really easy for everybody to remember you by and that you put it everywhere. Everywhere you have a footprint.

Deb Zahn: And for the consultants, the word consultant is not enough.

Juan Guerra: No, no.

Deb Zahn: But that's what I see. I see it on LinkedIn. I see it on signatures. I've heard people describe it as if consultant is enough to generate someone's interest. And why would it? Because there are a gazillion consultants doing a gazillion different things and you haven't told me what you do.

Juan Guerra: Yeah. Even more for a consultant because a consultant each has its own proprietary method to achieve a result. And so I would focus more on the pain that I help my client eliminate. Connect with the pain, the desire, what is it that they're trying to achieve? I recently worked with some business consultants, they nowhere say that they are consultants. They just say we help entrepreneurs scout their business without working nights and weekends. And yeah, I want to scout my business without working nights and weekends.

Deb Zahn: I want that.

Juan Guerra: So yeah, in the end, we want the result. We want to connect with that desire, how we achieve it. As long as we have the certainty that we're going to achieve it. That's what we care about.

Deb Zahn: Yeah. And I've lived this because I started mine as a joke. And when I became a consultant is, I said I cure decision-making disorders in groups. And people thought it was funny. And then they're like, yeah, we have those. Can you please come cure those? And it got me business because people...It signaled to them that I was going to be fun and funny to work with but it also pinpointed exactly if you have a group of people that don't and cannot agree on things, you bring me in and I help solve that.

Juan Guerra: Nice.

Deb Zahn: And that's a very particular thing I do. And then I go home and I sleep for several days because it's hard. So this is great. Now I know also we're in a virtual world so you were smart enough to get ahead of the virtual curve in your business. But what are some of the technical things that we have to pay attention to when we're trying to get our message out there or we're doing our own presentation or being part of something? What do we need to pay attention to?

Juan Guerra: One thing is to understand the context of how people are consuming the content. Normally when we go to an event, we see the audience in front of us. Obviously, right now we just have a lens that is pointed at us a little camera and then that's it. But what we need to keep in mind is that actually, you're not having a presentation anymore. You're having a conversation because people are consuming the content individually. Everybody sitting by themselves watching you deliver that presentation. And so the goal should be that now you should make it as conversational as possible because you have one type of customer in front of you that is actually multiplied a couple of times. And that's the beauty of the virtual event, that all you need to do is find one type of customer, and then you find many of them. And so that makes it even easier for you to deliver that content because now it's having a one-on-one conversation with many people and that's one thing.

The next thing is, if you can avoid the slides, it's also super, super useful because you want them to connect with you, to see you, to see that person that is actually delivering the presentation. And if you use slides, again, it should be just a picture that supports your point. Now the majority of the webinar software and conferencing tools, they give priority to the slides. And so that's why you have suddenly this huge slide and now you cannot see the person anymore. If you have a bunch of speakers, you don't know who's the one who's talking. And so I really encourage you to try to get rid of the slides as much as possible.

Actually, if it even helps you, can have the slides but just don't share your screen and you can go through them and deliver the presentation. Try to look at the camera as much as possible so that people feel that you are addressing them and feel comfortable with pauses. That's the other thing, that because you're alone, you feel that you need to talk all the time. Don't be afraid of silence. Just as if you are on the stage, people need breathing time to process the content, to internalize the message that you just delivered. Especially if you're targeting the fake beliefs that they have. Now you're changing the way they see something. You need time to process that information. And so this is what I encourage you with. Don't underestimate the tech. If your organizer wants to do a tech check do it because it's there for a reason.

Deb Zahn: Please.

Juan Guerra: And yeah, more technical than that, it's like restart your computer, don't have more windows open than the actual one that you need, try to connect to the internet with the cable lighting, proper mic, at least. And yeah, those common things.

Deb Zahn: I love how you're saying this matter of factly and yet I'm laughing because we're this far into the pandemic and people still haven't figured out how to use the technology and they're still like, wait, can you hear me? Am I on mute? And they're not doing the checks ahead of time and so it's contributing to virtual fatigue. And so now if you're presenting, if you're trying to get a message across, you're not starting from a nice even clean baseline. You're starting from the fatigue.

Juan Guerra: Yeah. And actually there is a big advantage point right there. That then you could be the one that stands out by coming with energy. If you're able to deliver the presentation standing, if you can raise the camera and you can stand that already is going to change the whole experience. Everybody's expecting the classic presentation, one more...If you believe that you are one more presentation, then you're already on the losing side. You need to know that people should give you their time because what you're going to tell them is going to help them. You need to be convinced. And when you are convinced, when you know how much people are going to benefit from your presentation, then they must listen to you. And that shows in your passion. That shows in your energy. It may feel a bit awkward that you're by yourself with all these...but people need that. People...Remember, they're just sitting down-

Deb Zahn: More than ever.

Juan Guerra: They've been listening to other presentations. They need that engagement and that experience. And so this actually creates a space for you to stand out.

Deb Zahn: And you will even just standing up you will...There's a guest that I've had on, Leanne Hughes, who's the facilitator extraordinaire. She has a little trick she does before she's going to do either facilitating a session or something like that wherewith the participants, she'll send out a really high-energy video introducing herself saying, here's what we're going to do. And it sets the tone but the other thing that it does is it helps solve what my husband calls the dog park beginning, which is where they're sniffing you out to see whether or not they should pay attention to you. And she sends a video ahead of time so that lets them do that sniffing as if you will, before they actually get on. And now they're on, they get a feel for who you are. They know what your vibe is and they're ready to rock and roll with you.

Juan Guerra: Yeah. And one thing there, for example, is if you go to an event, then you can ask organizers to play that video for you. Or you can write the introduction that they will use to call you on the stage because now it's somebody with authority giving you the authority. And that's something that also helps a lot. Sets the frame for you.

Deb Zahn: Never let anybody just pull a random bio. I've lived through that where I'm like, oh, why are you mentioning that, that's not important. So that's wonderful. So Juan, there's so much great stuff here. If somebody needs help figuring out what their story is, what their persuasive message is, where do they find you?

Juan Guerra: Yeah. The best would be online. You can go to There is a course actually there and content that will help you simplify your message. That's the starting point of all the work that we do, making sure that you're clear, eliminating all confusion from your message. And from there on once we have that centerpiece we go on and add the whole storytelling part to it.

Deb Zahn: I love it. And we'll put a link to that on our website. Let me ask you one last question. So you yours is all about life, I love that it's it the school of life?

Juan Guerra: Skills of life.

Deb Zahn: Skills of life. Sorry, I got that wrong. So speaking of life, that should have been my transition. How are you bringing balance to your life these days, however it is you define that?

Juan Guerra: You know, it's quite intense nowadays because I have a five-month-old baby.

Deb Zahn: Congrats.

Juan Guerra: Thank you. Thank you. And managing the business that is growing. But for me, what brings me balance is from the professional side, when I see that the clients are succeeding after working with us, that keeps me going and gives me the motivation and so that's a big driver from the professional side. From the personal side, I came to understand that the whole business side at the end of the day is just simply the tool to give us the resources to live our life. And so that's when I see the client succeeding that gives us the resources and the time for us to enjoy our lives together. So one thing comes to the other, that's how I bring the balance to my life.

Deb Zahn: Ah, that's perfect. Well Juan, thank you so much for joining me on this. This was just so full of really helpful gems for people to think through this. So thanks again.

Juan Guerra: Thanks for having me Deb. Appreciate it.

Deb Zahn: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Craft of Consulting Podcast. I want to ask you to do actually three things. If you enjoyed this episode or if you've enjoyed any of my other ones, hit subscribe. I got a lot of other great guests that are coming up and a lot of other great content and I don't want you to miss anything. But the other two things that I'm going to ask you to do is, one is, if you have any comments, so if you have any suggestions or any kind of feedback that will help make this podcast more helpful to more listeners, please include those.

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