Transcript

Episode 162: The Magic of Expert Learning and Development—with Eric Girard

Deb Zahn: I want to welcome you to this week's episode of the Craft Of Consulting Podcast. So on this episode, we're going to dive into learning and development. And specifically, the types of trainings that companies and organizations are calling for, that help them achieve their results and develop their staff and survive the Great Resignation. And I bring in somebody who is an absolute expert in this, Eric Girard, who's going to talk about what it is, what makes it good, what makes it bad? What types of things that you would see, if you were another type of consultant that would tell, "I need to bring an expert in for this"? So much great stuff in here around training and development of staff. Can't wait for you to hear it. Let's get started.


Hi, I want to welcome my guest to the show today, Eric Girard. Eric, welcome.


Eric Girard: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.


Deb Zahn: So let's start off. Tell my listeners what you do.


Eric Girard: Yeah. So the short answer is I'm a management development consultant. The longer answer is I help new managers transform from being great individual contributors, great employees, to being great people managers. And there's a whole suite of things that I do to help move them along that journey.


Deb Zahn: That's fabulous. And I know that learning and development is sort of the term I've heard you use and I've heard others use. And you really go deeply into how companies and organizations can use that to do what you just described. Now, the reason I wanted to have you on is also because I think it's important for other consultants to know when to tap into this type of expertise in the work that we're doing because regardless of what you come in for, you often find the people stuff. And this particular people stuff requires expertise. And we're going to talk about that today. So first of all, for folks who don't know, what is learning and development, and that umbrella that you do your work under?


Eric Girard: Yeah. So learning and development is all about, a lot of people would call it training. So a lot of people would say, "Oh, I'm going to go to a training class." That's one way to think of learning and development. Another way to think of learning and development is e-learning. So for example, microlearning, when folks take a course online. Or learning and development can happen between you and I, we could sit here and have a conversation, you can coach me. That's a form of learning and development. So there's a whole lot umbrella of things that happen under the rubric of learning and development. And it's really about just taking somebody from where they're at, to where they need to be, identifying their current state, and their desired state, and what's the gap, what's in the middle, what's holding them back?


And then determining that if there is a learning need in there, that we fill that need in the way that's most appropriate. So it's not Professor Girard lecturing from a stage, it's not, "Here, read this book and go figure it out on your own." It's very much a facilitated experience where folks get the information they need in the way that works for them. And there's lots of different ways to provide information so that people with different learning styles, different working styles, can absorb and apply the information right away.


Deb Zahn: I love it. And I've been through it, so I get how valuable it is. Years and years ago at Kaiser Permanente, they invested in us so that we could do what they needed us to do and do it successfully. So I know how powerful it is and I also know what it's like when there's an absence of it. Now, for any companies and organizations who are thinking, "Oh yeah, yeah, we like trainings. We do trainings," but don't understand it as deeply as you said. Why should they be paying attention to it now more than ever? What's the urgency behind this work right now?


Eric Girard: Yeah. Well, there's a few things. The first is most employees, like if you look at the research, most employees have a hunger to want to learn in their jobs, they want to develop. And they're coming to a job, they're coming to a career expecting to be developed. And if that development doesn't happen, then they'll vote with their feet and they'll go someplace else. So that's really important because we want to reduce churn and turnover as much as we can. And this is one way to help reduce that, is by providing valuable learning experiences and growth experiences for employees.


Another reason is is just good financial common sense. So if I keep thinking that I'm going to hire for the skillsets I want, I'm going to wind up hiring more and more expensive people and still find gaps in their knowledge, and still have to fill in those holes. Whereas if I bring folks in with the expectation that I'm going to train them and I'm going to invest in their learning so that they can perform the job I hired them to do at the standard I expect, then you're going to get a return on investment. You're going to get a return on benefit. So that is a real solid line. And you can actually draw a line from a training you put together to better results for the company. And there's a way to do that, where you can show return on investment. But just think about the value of having employees that feel cared for.


So I come to work for the very big corporation of America, or maybe the very small corporation of America. I come to work for the company. And right away, I'm given a catalog of offerings, and I'm encouraged to take advantage. How does that make you feel to say, "This company cares enough about me, that they want to invest in me, they want me to take training, they want me to learn, they want me to develop"?


There's an organization out there you've probably heard of, LinkedIn Learning, which is a phenomenal tool that not only provides very business-centric courses on things like Excel, and financial modeling, and data analysis. But if you want to, you can study photography. And you can study underwater basket weaving if it was on the platform. And it's a huge platform with thousands and thousands of courses.


When I was at a previous employer, we provided the whole platform to everybody and said, "Listen, not only is this available to you to get your immediate questions answered so that you can do your job, the job we have for you today, but if you want to develop as a person and pursue a hobby, you're welcome to." And that just really helped employee engagement as well. So those are just a few ideas.


Deb Zahn: I love that. And it certainly makes you feel cared for. Now, for the people who are on the receiving end, so obviously they're going to feel more cared for, but what do you see when you're in the midst of providing this development, what do you see them experience that is different than what they might experience with sort of the blog trainings that we've all been through?


Eric Girard: Well, so I can speak for what I see when I'm standing in front of the classroom, or when I'm sitting in front of the camera. What I see is those figurative light bulbs pop. And I see in a hot moment. And that's what I'm looking for is, first off, I create trainings or programs that are meant to solve a specific business problem, so we're not here to sing kumbaya. We're not here just to feel good and have a good time and then go away and keep doing what we were doing. The whole point is I want to help move a needle someplace in the organization, that's going to make the company stronger, and the team stronger, and the person stronger.


To do that, I want to see people change their behavior somehow in front of me, so that when I tell you how to do something, and then I show you how to do it, and then I say, "You try it," they actually can do it. And they go, "Oh, that's how that works. That's how that concept works." And boom, they've got it. And then I send them away to go and apply it on the job right away. And then I'll ask them, a week or two later, "How's it going? Do you remember that training you took? Are you still applying it? Have you changed your behavior? How are things going?" So that it doesn't go waste, the forgetting curve doesn't just plummet off the cliff.


Deb Zahn: Yeah. And I have certainly experienced those. We did the training and now we go back to our lives as opposed to...


Eric Girard: Yeah. And I hate that, I hate trainings that aren't connected. And I think we've all been through training courses that aren't connected to any sort of organizational reality. And people are looking at each other going, "What are we doing here? Why was I sent here?" Usually, they're captives. "Why was I sent to this training?" And it's usually some form of compliance training. It's IT compliance, or legal compliance, or some check-the-box thing. And it doesn't have to be that way. Even if it is compliance training, even if it is mandatory, you can still connect it to something that matters to the company, to the team, to the individual. And have people walk away feeling different, better, hopefully, about the content, and wanting to change their behavior for the better.


Deb Zahn: There's more bad versions. And I know because I've sat through some of the bad versions, so let's just be real. Let's get those off the table. So what are some of the other like, "Oh my goodness, don't ever do that," sort of versions that you've seen?


Eric Girard: Back in the early days of e-learning, folks used to think that you could just take a PowerPoint deck and narrate it, just talk at it and click through the slides. And it would be like the history professor from Ferris Bueller's Day Off. And this person would just drone through the slides, and they would change the slide, and then they would talk about the slide, and then they would drone on. And so this kind of narrated PowerPoint without any interactivity, without any voice talent, is just a way to put people to sleep. And they don't work so much to learn the content as to circumvent the system so they can get through it without having actually having to go through it, so.


Deb Zahn: Yeah.


Eric Girard: Yeah. I've seen a lot of bad e-learning and I've seen a lot of bad trainings, especially employee onboarding because employee onboarding often gets relegated to, I'm going to say this and you let me know if it's not going to work for the audience. Employee onboarding often gets relegated to low-level HR folks.


Deb Zahn: Yeah.


Eric Girard: And these are people who are HR specialists of some sort, or HR generalists of some sort. They're not trainers, they're not very senior in their organization, but they're available. And so therefore you're running onboarding. Therefore, you're running onboarding. And they're given a book or a PowerPoint deck and they say, "Go out there and do it." And they bore the audience to tears. And that is their audience's first exposure to any kind of learning and development in that organization, is this boring, uninspired, kind of halfhearted effort at onboarding folks. I remember when I, my last job, I went through onboarding and doodled until they got to benefits. And then I sat straight up because the benefits were awesome. The benefits were off the hook. And so I paid very close attention that. And then as soon as they were done talking about benefits, I'm like, "Yeah, yeah. I know how to set up my computer. I know how to do all those things." And I went back to doodling or doing whatever.


Deb Zahn: Yeah, I've experienced that horribly, but I've also loved the, "I'm going to say everything that I could possibly say about this thing ,and I'm going to write it all on one slide." And then it's like 7-point font and 23 bullet points. I’m being generous. I've seen more than that. And it's a check of the box exercise. "I'm just trying to relay this to you and you're either going to get it or not get it. And I don't really care if you don't get it."


Eric Girard: Well, yeah. Because if you don't get it, you're clearly not smart enough. And I'm not going to deal with you anyway.


Deb Zahn: That's right, which is the attitude.


Eric Girard: Yeah. I've also seen the whiteboarder, the crazy whiteboarder, who stands in front of a whiteboard and starts whiteboarding a concept. And by the time they're done, the whiteboard is a mass of squiggles. And even if you were in the room from the beginning, you still couldn't piece together what that was all about. I mean, that's just horrible as well. There's an art form to whiteboarding and not a lot of people know how to do it.


Deb Zahn: Yeah. It ends up looking like a bizarre conspiracy theory diagram. I know a good chunk of what you do with clients is also ahead of time, so it's not just, "We will show up, we will do these learning and development activities." What are the types of things that you do before you even get in the room to make sure that it is actually going to achieve the outcome that they care about?


Eric Girard: Yeah. So I use an acronym, it's an instructional design model that's been used for years and years, called ADDIE. And ADDIE stands for Analyze, Design, Develop, Implement, and Evaluate. And there are more recent models out there, there's the SAM model. And a lot of people use agile development methods. I tend to use ADDIE because it's easy to use and to teach others. And so I can bring my client along with me on the journey and explain. And so we're co-creating stuff. So before I ever sit down in front of PowerPoint, or Google Slides, or anything, I sit down with a client and have a conversation about what's going on in the organization? What hurts? What's the matter? Where's the pain? Asking what the current state of things are in whatever the realm is we're talking about.


So if it's in management development, then, "What are your managers doing that they shouldn't be doing, or what aren't they doing that you want them to be doing? And what's the impact on the company? What company metric would you like to see improved? Would you like to see employee engagement scores go up? Would you like to see turnover reduced? So what's the big company metric that you want to change as a result of what we're talking about?" So lots of needs analysis conversations first, with several people in the organization, until I have a good bead on what's going on, what's the current state, what's the desired end state, what's the gap, what's in the way? And then how do we clear those? And by the way, just because I'm a learning and development guide does not mean that every problem is a learning and development problem. So just because I've got a hammer, it doesn't mean that every problem is a nail.


So I may uncover problems that are happening in the organizations that are not learning problems. And I'll report those back to the client. Let you know, "Hey, you might have some system issues, you might have some organizational issues to look at." That's beyond the scope of what I would do, but I would point those out. And just be fair and say, "Listen, not everything is a training problem. And so I'm not going to come to the engagement with that." So lots of analysis first. And then, when we start to design, again, no PowerPoint, no slide deck. It's just a Word doc and an outline. And I start to outline my thoughts and get it all organized. And I get the objectives put together, I think about who the audience is, and who specifically am I talking to? Can I get names? Can I get titles? Who specifically am I talking to? What are my learning objectives? What do I want to see them doing different as a result? And how will I move this audience to that objective?


And that's how I design the training. And so that... Pardon me, that helps me decide what activities I'm going to use, what modalities I'm going to use, how I'm going to engage this particular audience and keep their attention all the way through what might be an hour-long intervention, or it could be a two day-long intervention, depending on what we come up with. Then we pull out the tools, then we start to think about all the beautiful things. And how we're going to make this pretty? And I have a little tip. I thought I was good at PowerPoint until I met my friend, Sandra. And Sandra started designing my slides for me. And it's like, "Ugh, she can take..." Well because I'm a very linear thinker. I would put five bullets on a slide with maybe a graphic and be good. And she makes these things build and fly in. And it's not overdone. It's just engaging.


If I even choose to use PowerPoint, even if I choose to use a Google deck, which I may not. But if I do, at least it's designed well. And then there are plenty of activities. There are breakout rooms; there's polling, there's gym boards, if I'm using a Google product, there's all kinds of things you can do with Miro, Slido. Tools upon tools, upon tools, to keep people engaged so that they're awake. Or if you're in the room, how do I arrange people in the room so that they're working with each other and I'm doing less talking than they are?


Deb Zahn: I just want to pause because I want people to hear this and then I want to hear about the implementing, is I've had clients who've said to me, and I've been trained as a trainer, that's one of the things that Kaiser did, is we learned training, public speaking, and facilitation. And I've had clients say, "Hey, Deb, you should come do a training on this." This is not, "Deb, show up and sit down and do this." This is a really involved process if the intent is actually to get the outcome that the client wants. And so I'm hoping that the folks that are listening, are hearing that distinction between sort of easy one-off trainings on this thing and really with the goal of learning and development.


Eric Girard: Well, even if it's an easy one-off training, even if it's an easy one-off thing, it's still going to take me a week to prepare for it because I need to go through all the steps of making sure of the universe of things I could say, I pick the most appropriate things for this group of people and present the ideas in a way that makes sense, that land well, for this group of people. And design it so that folks are engaged. So this group of people is engaged the way they want to be, so that it looks effortless. And then, let's not forget, I still have to rehearse what I'm going to say. I've been doing this for 30 years and I still rehearse because otherwise I come off as stilted, or stiff, or I stumble over my words. And that's distracting. And a big part of my job is to remove distractions. So yeah, even a quick, easy one-hour thing takes at least a week.


Deb Zahn: Yeah. No, I hear you. And if you don't prep, it never comes off the way you actually want it to. So let's talk about the implementation part. What I'd love for you to do is to maybe grab one of the things that you train on, and you've gone through that process, and you realize this is the thing, or these are the couple things that are going to be most helpful for the outcome. Then what does the implementation look like? And if you have an example, that would be great.


Eric Girard: Yeah. So let's talk about a recent goal-setting module I put together. So this was a one-hour module, on goal setting. And it was a small audience and we were only five or six folks, and I was presenting it via Zoom. And I was going to move this audience from little to no understanding of how to use a formal method of setting goals, moving them to a point where they could, individually, all five of them could go off and run their own goal-setting session for their teams. And so after I did my needs analysis and considered who's who, and did my design and develop the slides. Implementation was all about, "OK, here we are in Zoom. I'm going to start by making sure we're all comfortable because goal setting is a very interactive thing." So we didn't just launch in and I didn't just go around the circle and have everybody state their name and their position. It was much more of a fun kind of get-to-know-you activity that was unexpected.


We did something called blind portrait drawing, where I asked everybody to pull out a piece of paper and a pencil. And then I put them into pairs and said, "OK, you are to look at..." So for example, if we were doing this, I'm going to look at Deb's image on the screen, I'm going to draw Deb's portrait, but I cannot look at the paper I'm using to draw and I cannot pick up my pencil either.


Deb Zahn: Nice.


Eric Girard: So you go through that and then there's a big reveal. And the reveal is hilarious because of course nobody can do this well. So the reveal is hilarious, they look like Picasso drawings, they look ridiculous. But folks get to, then they laugh about it. They say, "Oh my gosh, that's so terrible." And they laugh about it, but then they get to talk about, "What was I looking at? Oh, I was looking at Deb's beautiful hair, I was looking at your smile, or I was looking at your eyes. And I really noticed this."


So then there's this level of vulnerability and trust that gets created. Now that's in place, now we're going to go through the process of brainstorming together to create goals that actually mean something for our group. And we just used a really simple Google Jamboard for that. And it went really, really smoothly because people weren't kind of jockeying, and elbowing, and shouldering during that activity because they'd already sort of relaxed a little bit. And so that's a big part of implementation for me, is setting the tone so that when we get to the work, just like you set the tone in the green room, set the tone so that when it's time for showtime, when it's time to do the thing, it flows. It's really easy.


Deb Zahn: Yeah. My husband, who's a very good trainer, he also talks about the dog park phenomenon, particularly if people don't know each other and they don't know you. There's going to be some sniffing around to see who everybody is. And doing some type of an exercise like that at the beginning, allows people to sort of sniff in a safe place, which is a very visual analogy. But you know what I'm saying because they can't just jump into stuff when they're still trying to figure out what everybody's about or what you're about.


Eric Girard: Yes. So I spend a lot of time establishing psychological safety and by a lot of time, I mean 10 minutes out of an hour. 10 minutes of creating that environment so that we can then, we're moving slow to move fast. So we're moving up, up, up, up, up, up, but we start off almost flat. And then the curve steepens after we've got the sniffing done.


Deb Zahn: Nice. Nice. And so after the first part is done and they've drawn their Jackson Pollock version of Deb or whomever, what happens next? That's where you get into the actual substance of, in this case, goal setting? And how do you get them to get it?


Eric Girard: I use a really simple mantra called, tell, show, do. I tell you about the concept, I explain the concept, I show it to you, and then you do it. And then you get feedback. And depending on the time, then you get a chance to do it again. So I always set it up first and explain what we're doing and why because it's a big thing with adult learners, is just people want to know, "Why are you making me do this?" And the people will revolt if you don't explain what and why upfront. People don't like being held in suspense, so I make sure that that is clear and I repeat it. So what are we doing and why? So what's in it for me with them, what's in it for me? This is how you will benefit by doing this thing. Let me explain it, let me show it to you, now you go.


And I will then let people try it out and then explain their results and teach back to the rest of us, "This is what I did, this is what I came up with." And so once I teach them, using a Jamboard to come up with goals, I'll send them off to go do it. And then I'll say, "OK, now walk us through your Jamboard and tell us about your goals, tell us how you got there and so on." So I talk for a little bit, I set the stage, I get everybody primed and ready, I explain what needs to be done and I show them how to do it and then I let them do it. And then they take over. And it's almost likely we flip the classroom and they become the teachers.


Deb Zahn: Nice, nice, nice. And then, how do you wrap up? Like what's a good wrap up that sends them on their way in a good, positive, helpful way?


Eric Girard: I always ask folks to reflect on what are the top three things they're going to take away from the experience? "What are you going to do differently as a result of this? So you've invested some period of time, an hour in this case, you've invested an hour of your life that you could have been using somehow else. What are you going to do differently? How did you benefit from this? What will you do differently on the job in the next hour of your life because of what we just did?" So I ask folks to evaluate and reflect that way. And then I always ask folks, I never let people out of the room without completing an evaluation. Just letting me know how the training went, what they thought of it, what they learned, how they're going to apply it. I ask them to write that down.


And I collect that primarily from my use and for the client's use. So we can talk about all the great things that happened as a result of this thing. It's great data right away. I can come right back to the client with my SurveyMonkey report and say, "Look what we did, look at what they said." I didn't prompt them to say any of this, they said these things. But also the act of writing it down, "This is what I learned, this is what I'm going to do differently," makes it more likely that people will actually change their behavior, which is what we want.


Deb Zahn: I love that. So if I'm another consultant, which of course I am, and I'm out there in the world with my clients and they're like, "We really need some learning and development help, or we need folks to come in and do some training, or things are happening and they're not thinking that they need to learn anything new." That's probably even a better example. What types of things should we be looking for that we know we need to throw up the Bat-Signal and bring in a real expert?


Eric Girard: I'm thinking of all the Batman movies.


Deb Zahn: Yeah. Well, except the bat, it would be like L&D or something like that.


Eric Girard: Right. Trainer men. So I would be listening for indications that the client is talking about a knowledge gap, a skills gap, or an attitude gap, KSA. So my people don't know something, my people can't do something, my people have the wrong mindset about something. If you hear these three things, KSA, then turn on the Bat Signal because chances are that's where a learning and development consultant can come in and help out. And the nice thing about that is that any L&D consultant worth their salt, will also be listening for non-training things that are coming up and will feed that back into the system somehow.


So for example, with facilitation skills. I'm teaching facilitation skills for a client. A lot of folks will complain, "I can't do, I can't facilitate well because I don't have decent equipment. So no matter what I do, I look awful on camera, I sound terrible, people can't understand me." It's like, "OK." I mean, I can explain where to get a good camera, but I would feed that back to my client and say, "You need to allocate some budget so people can spend a hundred bucks and get a decent webcam." And like this headset was $29.95 on Amazon and it's good enough. So you don't have to spend a lot of money on equipment to make people look and sound halfway decent, so that then that distraction is removed.


Deb Zahn: That's right. That's right. And then you remove any barriers to them actually taking the action that you expect them to take. Love it. So if I'm a consultant to a company, who's thinking of bringing someone in, and they want my advice, what should I tell them to be looking for, so they know they're hiring the right folks?


Eric Girard: I think two things come to mind right away. And the first is, of course you want to vet them on LinkedIn and look at their website. So in the realm of web, look at their LinkedIn, look at their experience. How long have they been doing learning and development? Because there are a lot of folks who transition into learning and development from another field and they can say things like, "Well, I've been in the field for 20 years." And then you look at their employment experience. And they were over in operations for 15 years, and in L&D for just a short time. So if you're going to hire them as a consultant and you're going to pay them a lot of money, then you want somebody who's been doing this for a long time and who has kept up in the field. So I've been doing this for 30 years. And that either means that I have a lot of experience or I have one year of experience 30 times, which is no good.


So you want the person who's been continually growing in their field and keeping up in the latest and greatest. And so you'll see that in their LinkedIn, you want to check their website to make sure that they're not just a one-show pony, that they have a breadth of offerings. I worry a little bit, if somebody brings one solution to the table, then they're going to try to make everything fit that one solution. And that concerns me. So when I developed my catalog, I thought, "My niche is definitely in management development and specifically in new manager development, but I can do a lot around that." And a lot of my stuff will scale up into more experienced managers as well, but I'm not just showing up with goal setting and that's all I do. And so everything in the world must fit into my goal-setting mold somehow.


Deb Zahn: That's right. And you try and shove it in that direction if not. So Eric, this all sounds fabulous. Everybody knows this is when the Bat Signal goes up, but where can folks find you today if they want to learn more about what you're doing?


Eric Girard: I'm all over LinkedIn. And you of course can find me at my own website, girardtrainingsolutions.com. But if you just search for Eric Girard training on LinkedIn, I should pop up.


Deb Zahn: Wonderful. And you know, I'm going to ask this last question, which is my favorite thing, which is how, with all the things you do, do you bring balance to your life, however it is you define that?


Eric Girard: I think about my why. So to go to the question you ask on your website, "What's your why?" So the reason why I do all of this is because I want to be able to spend as much time with my family, with my kids as I can, while I also earn a living. So I have pretty decent work hours. I usually am down here in my office by about 8:30 or 9:00 in the morning, which means I get breakfast with the kids. And then throughout the day, I pop up to say hello and have lunch, or get coffee, or whatever. I'll knock off at 3:00 or 4:00 and hang out, have dinner. And if I need to, I'll come back down. We travel a lot, we go to cool places. And we always go places where there's internet, unless we're deliberately unplugging, which we do a lot too.


But for example, we were just in a log cabin in the cascades in Washington, it's called the Log In. And in the Log In, you can log into super-fast internet. So we're in this beautiful log cabin in the middle of nowhere, right on a river. And I've got internet, I've got my portable monitor, I've got my headset, I've got everything I need. I work Friday like a normal day and then I packed everything away in the bag and the weekend was mine. So my office travels with me as long as there's internet. And even when there's not, I can still write, I can still do stuff and I've got 5G on the phone, so if there's no internet, I can always just hotspot. So I just try to weave in being with the family while I work. And then just remembering, "Wait a minute, we're here at this beautiful spot. Don't forget to make time to go for a hike. Don't forget to make time to just sit on the porch, swing with the kids."


Deb Zahn: Yeah. And log out, which I actually loved that they called it Log In. That's pretty funny. Well done. Well, Eric, I want to thank you so much for being on the show. This is really helpful. And I definitely have a better understanding of how involved this is. Even though I've trained, I have not done sort of the level of detail that you're doing, so this was enormously helpful.


Eric Girard: Thank you so much for having me. This is fun.


Deb Zahn: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Craft of Consulting Podcast. I want to ask you to do actually three things. If you enjoyed this episode or if you've enjoyed any of my other ones, hit subscribe. I got a lot of other great guests that are coming up and a lot of other great content and I don't want you to miss anything. But the other two things that I'm going to ask you to do is, one is, if you have any comments, so if you have any suggestions or any kind of feedback that will help make this podcast more helpful to more listeners, please include those.


And then the last thing is, again, if you've gotten something out of this, share it, share it with somebody you know who's a consultant or thinking about being a consultant, and make sure that they also have access to all this great content and all the other great content that's going to be coming up.


So as always, you can go and get more wonderful information and tools at craftofconsulting.com. Thanks so much. I will talk to you on the next episode. Bye-bye.