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Discovering Your Special Sauce as a Consultant—with Andrea Mantsios

Deb Zahn: Hi, I want to welcome you to this week's episode of the Craft of Consulting Podcast. On this podcast, we're going to talk about your special sauce as a consultant. And I say it tongue in cheek, but I actually really do mean it, is how is it that you can find your special sauce and what makes you unique as a consultant in the way that you show up for clients, in the way that you work with them and everything that you do in your business. And it matters tremendously for attracting the right clients, working with the right clients, and having them adore working with you. So, I brought on someone who thinks very deeply about her special sauce and she's going to talk about her journey and what that has done for her in terms of really being able to figure that out, and it's led to some amazing things. So, Andrea Mantsios is going to be on and she's going to share that journey with you. Such great stuff. Let's get started.

Hi, I want to welcome to the show today, Andrea Mantsios. Welcome. I'm so happy to have you here.

Andrea Mantsios: Thanks for having me, Deb. It's great to be here.

Deb Zahn: So, let's start off. What is it that you do?

Andrea Mantsios: Well, love to tell you a little bit about it. I started a public health consultancy called Public Health Innovation in Action, which we lovingly call Phia. And Phia works to develop and support community-engaged public health programs and research. And what that means is what we do is engage in partnerships with communities to have them at the table for public health work, developing research and programs with community involved and inputs incorporated into the work we do.

Deb Zahn: And I am also a public health person, so all that makes my heart sing. I love to hear that. So, today we're going to not talk about public health, although we could for hours, let's be perfectly honest. We could go…

Andrea Mantsios: We sure could.

Deb Zahn: ...aimlessly about it.

Andrea Mantsios: I know we could.

Deb Zahn: We're going to talk about the special sauce when you're a consultant and what that means, what that does for you, your business, the folks you interact with. But let's start with the value proposition because as you know, the thing I always tell people, one of the first things you need to do is to define what your value is, to who it is you're ultimately trying to work with? And you had a unique approach to yours. Talk a little bit about what your approach was and how having it helped you.

Andrea Mantsios: Sure, sure. Yeah, the value proposition has been a funny journey for me because I think, as many newbies, when I started out three years ago, I didn't have a real handle on what it meant to even have a value proposition. I was like that new experience of consulting was a bit of jumping off a cliff, which I hope others can relate to you who are not sure what a lot of the uncharted territory is that's ahead of it. And the idea of a value proposition to me, I just took it very literally. I was like, OK, so what do I do? And I developed a value proposition that was, I tend to be quite literal. So, no surprise. It said I support health departments, academic institutions and research facilities and developing public health programs and research. And none of that's wrong. That is what I was doing. But it was very much literally what I do, and it was missing heart. It was missing my values. It was missing my approach.

And I remember thinking that at the time. I think I'm being a little literal with this exercise, but I also didn't know how to get it to be more because I was new to consulting and I was trying to figure out who am I, where do I fit? Who am I to my clients? As other people may relate to, as a newbie consultant, you've come from a place where you knew what your job description was. You applied to a position where there was a job description, you knew what you're applying to. Suddenly you are developing everything from scratch of who you are to each of your clients, what your role is going to be for them.

As in my case, the projects that come across my plate are very different. So, I'm never doing exactly the same thing. So, what I was doing was a lot of soul-searching about who am I to the client? What am I bringing to each unique opportunity that is my special sauce? And so I think what I had done early on was I had what was my value proposition that I thought was, it was literal, but it was descriptive. It's exactly what I was doing. It's who I was partnering with and what I was helping them to do. But in parallel, I had an aspirational value proposition of what I hoped to at some point get to be. And that was really instrumental in driving my evolution over the last three years to get me to where I am today with the clarity I think I now have on who I am, what I bring to the table, and why we'd have a great experience if my client wants to hire me to be their consultant.

Deb Zahn: I love that. And I love because, with value propositions, it's important to be really clear about who you are, what you're serving. But you're right, if it misses heart and it misses the mission and it misses what's uniquely you that you're bringing to the table that others don't, or they don't in the way you do, then it's boring.

Andrea Mantsios: Yeah, yeah. That's the thing which doesn't feel like me. I love public health. I'm passionate about the work I do, and that value proposition just felt flat on me and I'm like, that's not aligning with all the oomph, pizzazz, and excitement that I want to bring to your work. So, how do I get it there?

Deb Zahn: I love that. So, you've already said some words that would describe your special sauce, but what is your special sauce? If you're at a cocktail party, what would you say to someone after a couple drinks?

Andrea Mantsios: I love this scenario here. I'm at a cocktail party. I'm going to hold my imaginary glass of wine at the cocktail party. I would say that yeah, I'm in no short supply of enthusiasm. I get pretty excited about the work I'm doing, and I have a lot of energy and a lot of excitement about what is put in front of me, whether it's in my personal life, whether it's in my work life. And when I was doing this soul-searching reflecting on my previous positions, I tried to identify what are the common threads. And the thread is that I was always getting feedback from supervisors and bosses and colleagues who worked with me, that energy that you're bringing to this, that level of excitement about this work is really generating a stir among a group working on this team of this project that wasn't there before.

And I thought to myself, well, that actually is me. That's authentically me. I'm not trying to be excited. I just really am excited to do the work at hand. And when I thought about if someone wants to hire me, public health consulting is an incredibly brilliant field. I have brilliant colleagues all over the place who could do great public health consulting for you. So, the question was really if I'm doing a project for you, what is that experience like? And I want you to know that not only do I have the skillset and a very honed view on how I approach my work. I will do from the philosophical and theoretical approach of how I believe public health work should be done and done well. But I will bring the commitment to that work that I bring to everything I do, which is with excitement to carry it out, the enthusiasm to be your cheerleader on this project.

And so often public health folks looking for consultants are like, “Oh, I have this headache of a project I can't get done. Or this has really been a sore point that we can't really figure out how to address. Or this has been a headache on my agenda for months, and I just need to bring in a consultant to get it done.” Well, great, I want to swoop in and help you with that. And wouldn't it be nice if it wasn't a headache for you anymore? And I could really help alleviate that burden and just be ready to jump in and tackle it with you.

Deb Zahn: Yeah, but also not boring when you do it. And so that is actually critically important because I remember once, and mine, I would not say is enthusiasm. This is why it's so important to do that soul searching and ask because I got feedback and some feedback that surprised me from others, but generally what I heard is you care more about the outcome than yourself and that was apparently a rarity among us, some of the consultants they'd work, which was just super sad. So, that's part of my special sauce is that it's when I come into situations, it's always a we and it's always how do we get to that place that is so important and meaningful?

But I remember being in a group where there were some consultants from one of the big firms that came on before us. I feel like they were all wearing the same suit and they probably weren't, but they were clearly just punching the clock. It was really important work that had an impact on people's lives. And it was painful to watch them because they were bored. They were bored with what they were saying. You could tell. And who wants that?

Andrea Mantsios: Yeah. Yeah. How horrible is that? Yeah, exactly. And I think the opposite of being bored and dry and super, just middle of the road, not particularly exciting. The opposite of that would be bringing the zest of wanting to learn more, being curious, wanting to unpack what their problem is. And I think it translates to how you do the work and the experience of what it's like to work with you. So, for me, I can just give you a concrete example that made me chuckle the other day. I guess part of my special sauce I would say is just, it's really fun to do this work and I don't work on light things. I work in health equity and social and structural determinants of health. We're talking about the really glaring social and structural determinants of health that we all are unpacking through our work here at BN, and so many colleagues work on this.

It's not light, it's dealing with systems of oppression and the structural inequities we see playing out. That's not light stuff, but what we're talking about is how to address these. And I want to be a person who brings the hope of we're working through a lens of health equity and how to make a more equitable future so that we can impact better health outcomes and we can shoot for whatever the end game is here that we want, but let's have a really good time doing it. So, I try to bring that level of fun and enjoyment that I have to everything, including the calls I have with my clients. And the example that comes to mind I guess is last week I was on a call that a group where I had produced a deliverable. It was a big report that I submitted. And just as a background for what I'm about to describe to you, I have a little bit of a problem with expressions.

I'm just notorious for butchering expressions. For example, for many years of my life, many years of my life believed that it was the bus stops here. Not that it was a buck, it was a bus stop that we were at. I believe that it was a bus that stops here. OK. So, this went on for several years. I didn't know that I was really way off the mark on that expression, but it happens all the time that I butcher expressions. And without knowing it into the report that I was submitting for a deliverable I had written, putting the horse before the cart instead of the cart before the horse. Didn't realize I had done that, sentence is too...

Deb Zahn: Oh, I love that.

Andrea Mantsios: colleague was proofreading it and wrote lovely note in the comment bubble, Andrea, I think you might have meant to say the cart before the horse. And I'm like, wow, there it is. There's my butchered expression syndrome. I tend to butcher every expression verbally, but I didn't know it translates to my writing. Silly us. I'm laughing about it with her. That's funny. So, we're on the call with the client and we had been talking through this deliverable and it was a lot of data and we were talking about the implications of that data. And someone on the team from our clients had said it was an interesting insight when you mentioned to take that kind of approach would really be putting the horse before the cart, the cart before the horse. There I go butchering it.

Deb Zahn: Oh, see you did it again.

Andrea Mantsios: There, I did it. So, they noted it and I said yeah, we did feel like that was what was coming out of this. And I said, this is our moment, would I really share that or not? And I was like, you know what? We could use some levity in this call because we're doing all this hard data work. And I was like, I have to tell you that did not say the cart before the horse. I have this thing where I always butcher things. And actually my colleague was the one who caught me. And so we had this whole laugh, and I told them the bus story and everybody was like this is authentic and this is real. And she's being vulnerable. And they're laughing about it.

Deb Zahn: Yeah.

Andrea Mantsios: And it was such a great part of that call. And those folks have told me before your calls, the calls with you guys are really a highlight of our week. It's just really enjoyable. So, we're doing this really good work with them, but we're having a really good time doing it. And we routinely laugh on our calls and talk about what's going on in our lives as we jump in. And I think that's a piece of my special sauce is just like, let's have fun, enjoyable, and good time as we do really hard good work.

Deb Zahn: Yeah. And I know when a lot of consultants start, there's a fear of being that authentic. And again, there's limits to authenticity. I don't show up at most of my clients swearing up a storm. There's a few that I could, but for the most part I'm not doing that. So, there are certainly some boundaries I appreciate, but it's sometimes hard to build up that confidence to recognize those things as your special sauce and be willing to show and do them. How did you get that or build that confidence?

Andrea Mantsios: It's such a good question because it's been a gradual process. I can tell you all this now with this clarity three years in. But when I started it was the lack of confidence and the lack of clarity on who I was and how I wanted to be. And it's separate from that whole thing when you're working on developing a brand voice, it's really more, it's deeper than that. It's developing your identity in your professional capacity, which you probably weren't pushed to do as much when you were in more formal roles. Now that you're your own show and you're starting a consultancy that is you and you want to infuse it with your heart and your soul, it is developing that identity aside from just a brand voice. It is an identity for your organization, which will then I think dictate every interaction you have, the last example I just gave being, let's have a good time. Well, I'm just going to share a story and that's part of what it means to work with me.

I think little things along the way, and this, again, a silly little example, but I happen to use a lot of exclamation points in my emails because I'm excited. And sometimes I tone them down a bit and bring them back. And sometimes I send that extra email. I'd send off another. I sent the final report a couple weeks ago that the team wrote back, “Great. Thanks so much. We're looking forward to reading it.” And I thought to myself, I think I'm just going to write back and say I'm really excited for the work ahead because I know it's a daunting outcome that we've decided at the end of this report is ahead. And they might feel overwhelmed. And I don't want them to feel overwhelmed. I want them to know that I'm going to be by their side for the work that's ahead. After this report some work is laid forward.

So, I was like, should I not write that email? It felt weird. I felt terminal, like, “Thanks. We'll take a look.” And I'm like, nope, that wasn't the terminal email. I'm just going to send this off. And of course, you could make that judgment call. I could also not have sent that, but I did and I said, “I’m so much looking forward to your thoughts and really excited about the work ahead.” And I was like, I don't know, maybe they were like, “OK, sure, whatever” or maybe they were like, “You know what. That Andrea. She's always excited for the next step ahead.”

So, little things like that have happened over the years as I became more comfortable asserting that as my special sauce. You really have to flex that muscle. First, identify what your special sauce is and then own it and really flex it. I could not have written that email, but I did. And that's what I want people to remember about working with me. Wow, what a pleasure. She's excited. I don't have to feel like this is a headache. She's with me with in this.

Deb Zahn: That's right. And I know that special sauces like yours, or special sauces like mine aren't going to be welcome everywhere. I remember having a client once where it was just not a fit at all, and yet it is with others. So, the one plug I want to put is I don't like the professionalism means one thing because let's face it, it's usually based on really narrow confines that usually are also based on race, gender, gender identity, and other really stifling definitions. And not everybody wants our secret sauce, or wants our special sauce. And that's OK because lots will.

Andrea Mantsios: Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? It's so interesting you say that, Deb, because that was a part of my coming to terms with asserting it and flexing it because the alternative to someone just loving that second response I gave or the exclamation point at the end of my email, the alternative is someone doesn't like it and they're like, “Wow, that's so annoying.” And that's OK because I realized then we're really not a good fit because I'm going to be sad that you're not liking that and you're not going to be happy with me because you're going to be annoyed I'm doing that. So, we should not just be upset about that, we should just not partner together. So, that's part of a lens through which I look at who I want to work with, who I want to support in their work, people who feel good about what I'm bringing to the table, not people who are going to be turned off in any way.

So, if I'm not your cup of tea, that's totally fine. Someone else will be your cup of tea. I want to be the cup of tea for someone who wants to drink this cup. This is not..

Deb Zahn: That's right.

Andrea Mantsios: ...other than being comfortable with where you fall. And so I think that is part of my process has been that, owning it, flexing it, and being OK with it's not for everybody. And that means that I end up working for people who do appreciate this and want this. And I feel great about that. So, I think it's part of how you make those happy relationships with clients.

Deb Zahn: I love it. And by the way, you got cup of tea right. I just want to thank you for that expression.

Andrea Mantsios: I get an internal holding my breath. Did it come out OK? It really anyone's guess whether I'm going to butcher something as it comes out. So, thank you for acknowledging that. It means a lot to me. Thank you.

Deb Zahn: You need encouragement wherever you can. But it's funny because when you said cup of tea, I'm like, yeah, there's some folks that want Lipton. And guess what? The folks who want Lipton aren't the right people for us. I’m like a good, bold, strong malty tea, and that's who wants me. And anybody else can go find their watered-down cheap version if they want it.

Andrea Mantsios: Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I mean, I would say that this is easier for me to say now where I am in developing my consultancy to be able to say with such clarity that I'm OK with people not being the right fit. And I can say that's maybe not the right project or right client for me. Early on it was really limiting to feel like I can't necessarily flex that special sauce. First of all, I hadn't developed it with such clarity, but also I didn't feel like I was in a position financially to turn down contracts. Things were coming across my plate. I've never done something that was opposed to what I stand for and want to work on, but I did things that were maybe not completely aligned with this value proposition. I did things that I was like, this is a great opportunity.

So, I also think if I came across a client who was not ready to pick up what I was putting down in the way we have enthusiasm, I understood like, OK, that's not the vibe. We are not in that vibe right now, so I'm going to adapt to the appropriate tone here.

Deb Zahn: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrea Mantsios: And I'm perfectly happy to carry that out on the journey to getting to where I am now, which farther along I can say, look, if I'm not your cup of tea, totally cool. Look elsewhere for your tea.

Deb Zahn: Go look elsewhere. Yeah. Although I have to admit, I did get in trouble early on when I was working on someone else's project, and it was a client that I typically wouldn't work with. The work was good, but the vibe was not aligned, as consultants would say.

Andrea Mantsios: Yeah. Yeah.

Deb Zahn: And I did maybe crack once, and they were just saying something that just was hard for my soul. And I finally said, “Yeah, that's not what that means.” And I just said, “Here's what that term really means, and what it really means for patients…etc.” And I did get a call from the head of the project going, “Yeah, no. Don't do that again.”

Andrea Mantsios: Yeah.

Deb Zahn: I'm like, I shouldn't be on this project because I'm having a hard time with that. But yeah, you're right. You adapt when you need to adapt. But yeah, the thought that you get a go and find people who are as excited about the work you do and love your enthusiasm because they're not necessarily getting that anywhere else, that's the magic. That's when the good stuff is happening.

Andrea Mantsios: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Deb Zahn: So, I also know that you've recently had some big wins. Now there was a really recent one, which I want to get to because this is really important for you and your business and your heart. There was also an earlier one that I was really impressed with and touched by and certainly I thought was a great win to have early on in your consulting business. So, the first one was the report and then we're going to hit the second one. So, just briefly share what that was, and then I'd love to hear how did that help you figure out what your path forward was as a consultant?

Andrea Mantsios: Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Thanks so much for highlighting both of those, Deb, I'm thrilled that you're picking up on two that make me really proud and excited about my work. This earlier one you're talking about was a report where I got to develop an evaluation of a project employing the equity evaluation framework, which is something that really resonates with exactly what I'm trying to do here in my work with Phia, and that is, always center the approach to public health work, whether it's designing programs or conducting research or doing evaluations of public health tools and resources to make sure that at the center of all that is the voice of the people who are being impacted by the health issue at hand. And in this case, we were working on a report that could have been taken in many different ways. You can do an evaluation sitting at a desk on your computer, researching, looking at numbers, or you can employ what I would call a human-centered approach, an equity-centered approach where you're really looking to elevate the voices of individuals.

And my background is in qualitative research. Part of what I love and feel thrilled to be doing at all times is getting in their understanding from people in their own voices, in their own words, how they feel about their most pressing health needs and how to address them. And so getting the opportunity to work on a report where we were able to use the equity evaluation framework and really center the evaluation on the voices of the community we were working with meant the world to me. And what is so satisfying about that is then hearing how much it means to community members to be offered that seat at the table. That's how I've always been involved in research and that's what has always brought me so much satisfaction in doing this work, is that people are thrilled to be there and I'm thrilled to have them there.

And there's such a history of a top-down approach to how public health research is conducted, that what you see when you bring this approach forward and say, this is a partnership where communities need to be involved. You see that it translates to an incredible partnership and thought in brainstorming solutions, in developing what can be wonderful public health solutions because the people who need to be there most are at the table. And so doing that report early on is part of this path I'm describing on honing the value proposition and saying, in my heart of hearts, the public health work I want to do is centered on marginalized populations, being able to have their voices heard in public health work. So, that was really exciting to be a part of.

Deb Zahn: And that's so important. So, first, there's that enthusiasm of which we spoke, but to have that then say, “Oh yeah, this is the type of work I want to do. This is how I want to do work” further defines then what clients you're seeking out, what you're applying for and not applying for because a lot of folks will just take what they can get. And public health is such a broad world. So, I largely do healthcare. That's such a broad world. You can end up doing a lot of stuff where it's hard to bring that enthusiasm to it.

Andrea Mantsios: Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Deb Zahn: I love that. So, let's talk about the recent big win.

Andrea Mantsios: Yeah. So, this is also just really exciting because it's a dream brand for me. It's a total dream brand because of who I'm doing it with and what I'm doing. So, one of my colleagues in Tanzania who I've worked with for several years on projects and we just adore the work each other does, we've always talked about an opportunity to partner, and we've submitted a grant to do a project together that gets at everything I'm passionate about and uses this approach that I'm talking about where the focus is on community engaged processes. And we've just received a grant which will allow us to, with Phia as the US-based organization and her organization, which is a social enterprise of basket-weaving women in rural Tanzania will be able to partner in addressing issues of how to address, basically health-related financial stressors that are coming mostly from maternal health costs and pregnancy-related financial shocks, and all the things that women who are mothers in the basket weaving collective are facing. And we're designing programs with the women in the village to come up with solutions around this very pressing health need they're facing.

So, it's the work I want to be doing with someone I want to do.

Deb Zahn: Yeah. So, let me ask this. So, when you started consulting, did you think you would be getting to do work like that?

Andrea Mantsios: No. It was literally a dream to be able to do this kind of work. This builds on the work I did for my dissertation. This builds on projects I was involved in around community empowerment interventions. It works its way into my trajectory in a natural, inorganic way. But on the other hand, it's something I could never have imagined I would've get when I started Phia as a dream of who I want to partner with, doing the kind of work I want to do in a place that means so much to me. And we submitted the application with fingers crossed and lots of WhatsApp messages back and forth like, oh, I hope, I hope, I hope. Oh, I hope, I hope, I hope. And then we got it. And we feel on top of the world because it's meaningful work that we have heard from the women themselves, they're excited to embark on with us. And it's truly a partnership that I couldn't be more thrilled to get going on.

Deb Zahn: And I think to me, the big message when I heard about it was, and the message that other people that because we're in a membership, the other people also heard is you don't have to water down your dreams when you become a consultant.

Andrea Mantsios: Yeah, you don't. And I would say something else that is coming to mind is a little bit of an, if you build it, they will come mindset. So, I feel like that's a little bit what I've been doing. And if you build it, they will come approach to looking at the kinds of applications to submit for. I just saw an RFP the other day that I was like, this could be done through a health equity lens in such a fantastic way that I want to put that into my proposal. I need the people who I'm applying for this RFP to know that I would do it with my health equity lens and the following top priorities of how I want to do that work. And if I don't get that, that's OK because I did it on the terms that I want to do it for what I believe is really meaningful work that will impact change. And if I get it, that will be me creating the future of Phia, getting projects that are what I want to see happening. So, it's aligned with that, that this grant happened. It's really exciting.

Deb Zahn: I love that. So, if you were giving advice to a new consultant out there in the world and they were where you were when you started, where I was when I started, and that uncertainty and not sure what to... What advice would you give them?

Andrea Mantsios: Wow. Yeah. I think everything we're talking about with this soul-searching process is the heart of what you can create the foundation of your consulting business on. So, if you can really go deep on who you are, what you want to be offering, and how you want to be providing your services in a soul-searching way because as I talked about your identifying what you get super jazzed about, what makes you passionate, what are your strengths, how would someone be thrilled to work with you compared to a competitor? What makes you bring something so special to the table that you want to let them know right off the bat, you're going to have this great experience with me because I'm bap, bap, bap, and bap.

And that process, I think can help new consultants really hone what, as I've mentioned, helps give your value proposition real specificity and heart. What gives you the lens through which to look at potential clients, potential proposals, everything you then can see through those eyes. And I think that helps you grow a consulting business that resonates with where you want to be in your field and how you want your business to be for clients.

Deb Zahn: That's fabulous advice. I love that. So, if anybody's out there in the world and they want to do public health in the good enthusiastic way that you're talking about it, where can they find you?

Andrea Mantsios: Well, you can come to We are right there with our website and all the information you could want about the exciting projects we work on. And we're also on LinkedIn, so you can find me on LinkedIn, and I'd love to connect with you there.

Deb Zahn: Wonderful. And we will have all of that in show notes. So, let me ask you this. So, there's the consulting life and which is part of the big life with the big L.

Andrea Mantsios: Yes.

Deb Zahn: So, how do you bring balance into your life, however it is, you talk about that.

Andrea Mantsios: Yeah. Balance is really important, and I love having a sense of balance. I think the way I've found to do that is to have protected time pretty much on a daily basis for a passion and a special part of the day that I love, which is cooking dinner and eating dinner with my family. And I work my butt off when I'm working and when I'm not, I disconnect pretty much. So, I stop my work every day to prepare dinner just because it's something I love, and it brings me a sense of joy and peace. Some people meditate, I cook, I just get in the kitchen, and I cook. And I love making a great meal for my family. I love sitting down and eating with my family.

And I have young kids, so they go to sleep early, I get right back to the computer at 8:00 PM and I work again. And that to me is a balance that I'm very comfortable with, a couple hours at night at the computer because I had a beautiful little mini vacation during my day with my family, cooking for them, eating a great meal with them. And that gives me a sense of balance. I know that I'm doing it on my own terms. I'll work at night. No problem. I had a really great evening with my kids.

Deb Zahn: I love that. And I know you also judge engagements by am I going to be able to make dinner?

Andrea Mantsios: 100%. And that's why it's protected time. You got to make sure that the things that fill your cup are, there's that cup again, that fill your cup, those things are prioritized in your life. And for me, that's how I've had to block off certain hours of my day. I'm not available. That's what I'll be doing. Satisfies my soul.

Deb Zahn: I love it. Well, Andrea, I am so grateful to have you on the show and it has been a complete delight to watch your consulting business just blossom in the way that it has in and doing work that is so critically important. So, I'm glad that you were able to come on and share your special sauce and encourage other people to find theirs.

Andrea Mantsios: Aw, thank you so much for having me on, Deb, this has been great.

Deb Zahn: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Craft of Consulting podcast. I want to ask you to do actually three things. If you enjoyed this episode or you've enjoyed any of my other ones, hit subscribe. I got a lot of other great guests that are coming up in a lot of other great content and I don't want you to miss anything.

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