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Episode 234: Helping Consulting Clients Get the Steps to Results Right—with Eva Higgins

Deb Zahn: I want to welcome you to this week's episode of the Craft of Consulting Podcast. On this podcast, we're going to dive into part the confluence of people, processes, and performance that ultimately helps our consulting clients get the results that they want and some of the methodologies that you can use to get them there. So, I brought on someone who has a lot of experience with fabulous methodologies that she uses with her clients, Eva Higgins, and she's going to walk through some of the work that she does to get clients results, keep them happy, and keep them coming back for more. So, let's get started. I want to welcome to my show today, Eva Higgins. Eva, welcome to the show.

Eva Higgins: Thank you. So, glad to be here and thank you for having me.

Deb Zahn: I am delighted to have you on. I'm really excited to get into some of what you do simply because you do some things that I've heard about, but I don't know a whole awful lot about, but I know that it's important for businesses they're trying to succeed. So, let's start off, tell folks what you do.

Eva Higgins: We focus on strategy, operations, and project management from mid-size to large businesses, primarily around people, process, and performance. We feel like if you take care of your people, it leads to better processes, which leads to performance, better revenue, sound practices, and also helping your business scale and grow.

Deb Zahn: Love it. And I have to say again, I want any consultants listening to rewind. Rewind. I just aged myself. I want them to listen to that again because that was so clear and so succinct. That's such a great example of how to describe what you do. So, everybody listen to that again and rewind on your VHS tape if that's how you're doing it.

All right, so let's start off with what are some of the common problems that you're seeing in businesses when they're trying to build and grow or achieve something significant? What are they running into that gets in their way?

Eva Higgins: I would say process and systems. A lot of people don't invest in their processes. What do we do when we want to grow or scale? They go out and they hire that person. But then your systems are still running back on the VHS days, or they don't properly document the process. So, you hire someone, but you haven't laid out what it is you want them to do. You haven't given them a plan to succeed. You want it done a certain way. But what people do is once they learn how you do things, they begin to make it their own. So, we don't necessarily plan for how we're going to make sure that person succeeds in the business. That's what I'm seeing, systems and processes.

Deb Zahn: I love that because I've certainly seen that where, "Oh, we need to do something. Let's put a body there." That person will be responsible for magically making it happen as opposed to a sensible approach like you're talking about.

Eva Higgins: Correct.

Deb Zahn: Love it. Now I know that then maybe you haven't experienced this, but I know that a lot of times leaders at various levels of the business don't really see what it takes to get results. They don't necessarily get the importance of the people part, the systems part, or even that there's multiple steps that might have to happen in order for that to get to the result. How do you help them understand the path to the outcome they want?

Eva Higgins: Well, it is exactly what I said. We put that plan in place. I like to come in and look at the existing process. Well, for me, a lot of people say, "Well, there is no process or the process is old or we're not using it anymore. We did something different." I always like to go back to that to see what's happening and then document. Let's see if we can get some metrics out of it because you know what, the metrics do not lie. You think you're excelling, so your projects, they're within scope and they're on budget. But then when you start printing out the documentation of what you have or putting a plan and a process in place, you realize you're really not hitting that goal. So, it also helps you identify the problems. Where's our bottlenecks? Is it in testing? Is it in ramp up? Initiation? Do we not know how to plan? What do those things look like?

And when you present those items to leadership, they can make informed decisions. So, then now we've established what the real issue is. We're going to put a plan in place, transparency all around. We know what the issue is, how we're going to succeed. Let's go off and let's make sure we hit our targets. So, I believe that's the best way that I work with leadership and with the team to make sure that we are all on the same page.

Deb Zahn: When folks come to you, when businesses come to you, are they typically, they already know that they have, like they know what the problems are or they're just like, "We just need something." And then you have to help them understand why having a plan is a good thing? What do you typically see?

Eva Higgins: What'll happen is they'll say, "Hey, we've got a problem." It's usually something very broad. "We're not delivering on our projects. Things are being done and delivered late. We need to deliver faster for our customers." Or they'll say, "We need to develop a plan for our teams to succeed." Because I'll be honest, a lot of people do not like writing. OK? But it's the easiest way to say, "This is what I want, this is the framework." You give it to that person, like I said, then they begin to own it. Then they start documenting and putting in notes. That's the way that I feel like it should be done. That's the way I come from when I try to do these things.

But businesses usually think they have an idea of what the issue is, and then when we do that deeper dive and start looking at what's going on, sometimes it's something else. So, it just depends. They think they know, but it could be the number one business killer, communication. Maybe we're not communicating. So, it could be any number of things. But generally there is some problem that they want me to solve whether it's identified or not, but we'll do the analysis and we'll get to the bottom of it.

Deb Zahn: So, they might be feeling the pain in some way, but if they went to the doctor, they'd be like, "I don't know why this hurts, but this hurts." And you come in and you do the diagnostic test to be able to say, "All right, this is what you actually have going on."

Eva Higgins: And that's a big part of it, the diagnostic. You always hear people talking about, "We came in, and we fixed this." Well, how did you know how to fix that? A lot of people don't talk about analysis. And I've run into that a lot on contracts where people are like, they want to get in and do the work and they want you to deliver the solution, but nobody wants to talk about what that analysis phase looks like. Do you really want somebody to just come in, "OK, your doctor, you got to have surgery"? Do you want your doctor coming in and looking at your case five minutes before he goes in? Or do you want him to do a little pre-work? Right?

Deb Zahn: That's right.

Eva Higgins: We're really big on the pre-work.

Deb Zahn: That's right. And take out a kidney when you really had a rash.

Eva Higgins: Exactly.

Deb Zahn: I love that. So, when you dig in and you find out, all right, here's what's going on, and then you come up with a plan, what are some of the go-to methodologies that you often use with clients that you're working with to help them actually execute that plan?

Eva Higgins: So, my background is software development. I used to be a developer a long, long time ago, but my process is on SDLC. I'm also a project manager and a huge proponent of Agile. Depending on the project, I'll use Waterfall or Agile, but I kind of use the PMBOK framework for how I lay out my projects. The planning phase, if you do nothing else on a project but the planning phase, you're off to a heck of a start.

Deb Zahn: That's right.

Eva Higgins: Because the planning phase, if I'm not mistaken, it's 49 steps, but it covers everything. If you just get that plan in place and kind of check off the boxes of things that need to be done before you start your project, just give a look at some of these areas like risk, that communication plan, scope, scheduling costs, some of them apply, some of them do not. You're off to a very good start. So, I use that framework for when I'm setting things up.

Deb Zahn: So, you said some serious Jedi things here. For those of us without our lightsaber yet, can you say a little bit more about what that framework is? So, the planning part, I love that and I love hearing that it makes you go deep. What else is in it?

Eva Higgins: The planning is it goes over the integration pieces of the project, the implementation pieces of the project. Planning, we talked about the scope, and when we say scope, we're talking about what are the requirements. What is it that we need to do in order to meet the goal? What does the customer, that stakeholder want? And we lay it out in such a way that every step of the process meets that end goal. That way there's no ambiguity about what we're trying to do. It's a clear defined process for how we're going to meet that end goal. And I think I said that my primary areas are software development, but the thing is it could be any project. So, I've done risk and insurance. I've done work for Department of Defense, healthcare, retail, e-commerce.

The framework of planning a project doesn't change. The end task may change, but the goal and what you're trying to achieve, it does not. It's these things that your customer needs you to do that you found out during your analysis process so you can solve their problems and their pain points. That's kind of a little bit about it.

Agile is a methodology in which it focuses on a quality deliverable and team dynamics. Waterfall is one that's more project management type of focus. You get that PM in there, that PM kind of directs the team, make sure they stay on track. So, that's kind of a little bit about the two, but whichever process you choose based on the work that you're doing, the plan is how you get a successful outcome.

Deb Zahn: I love that. And I want to give a particular shout out to, well, I love all the pieces of that, but the project management piece, so much of what companies, organizations, I don't care who it is, live or die based on their ability to successfully manage a project. And not everybody has that ability or the temperament and all the good stuff that makes for a really good project manager. Project managers make my heart glow.

Eva Higgins: I'll say they make the world go round. And I say this too, I was telling someone this the other day, if you're a mom, you're a project manager because you've got a plan for when you're getting those kids out the door in the morning. You know what time they've got to be at school, you know what you're going to fix them for lunch, what time you got to pick them up, when they got to be in soccer practice. None of that happens without a plan being in place to get those kids where they need to be. Same thing with dads and coaches. When they're coaching their kids in their little league and softball teams, they have to have a plan in order for those teams to succeed and win. So, the key word across all of this is not mom, dad, both of them have a plan.

Deb Zahn: Love that.

Eva Higgins: And if you've done this type of work long enough in consulting, you've kind of developed your plan too. But the thing is, is when you're bringing on those other people, did you write up your plan? Did you document it so they can follow it and succeed as well?

Deb Zahn: Or did you do it and then you ignore it, and then when things go off the rails, not that this has ever happened to me, but when things go off the rails, you're looking around like, "What happened?" And even measuring the success. I don't have kids, but I take care of a lot of kittens, and I actually had an Excel spreadsheet because I had to weigh them twice a day to make sure they're gaining weight. And you know I had a trend line.

Eva Higgins: I know you did.

Deb Zahn: The whole thing because I had to have an organized way to make sure that everything was heading in the right direction. And in that case, it was life or death, but you had to make sure everything was going in the right direction. And some of those same skills I apply when I'm doing consulting. But I'll tell you, I have vowed to never do another project that has any level of complexity that does not include a project manager who is not me.

Eva Higgins: You know what? I agree. I agree with that. Sometimes you're so deep. And for me, I not only work on the project, some projects, I work in the project. So, even though I wear the PM hat, if we need the help with testing, I jump in and I do that. Let's make sure this thing is right before we deliver. It goes both ways. And sometimes we partner up with other companies where that other company may be the PM and we may be assisting in the project, helping out with the PM analysis piece. Does this plan look OK? It varies. But like I said, the ultimate goal is to have something, a template, a starting point to work off of. And if you're doing, like you say, Agile, Agile doesn't fully plan the whole process out. Agile says, "I've got to do this within the next couple of weeks. Let's just plan on delivering this within a timeframe to the customer. But this is what I need to do right now. I'll worry about six months down the road, six months down the road." So, it doesn't have to be fully planned out.

Deb Zahn: That's right. And I actually like that because I actually know that there's research that shows that if somebody does a whole long detailed implementation plan and if they never deviate from it, they tend to not get results. So, you got to be actively engaged in it.

Eva Higgins: Think about it during COVID, during 2020 you started a project fully laid out January 1. What do you think happened to that plan when March, April came around? It was null and obsolete within three, four months because COVID hit. So, you have to be flexible, and you have to have the ability to adapt. But if you can adapt within the framework of this is what the initial ask was, and you can modify it and continue for it, you'll still have a successful project. But people think that when they put a plan in place that there's no change. There's absolutely change.

Deb Zahn: Because humans are involved?

Eva Higgins: That's one thing

Deb Zahn: And because things are out of your control sometimes like COVID or there's a major shift in the industry or something like that. I love that. And one of the things you're talking about is a really engaged process, but also I know some of the methodologies you use are iterative process. It's not a linear, "Boom, we've solved it, now we're done." Now I know that some folks that I've worked with still think about problems and accomplishments in a linear fashion. How do you work with organizations to help them understand that you might accomplish and the software might hit the streets or whatever it is, but the process itself is an iterative stage that they should always be working. How do you help them understand that? Because I know people like to just check things off a list.

Eva Higgins: Right. Well, we do have the list. We do check those things off. But one thing that I think is very important is one, putting the meetings in place. Depending on the timeline of the project, I like to meet at least every two weeks with everyone on the project. Not just the people that are making the decisions, but everyone. And a lot of businesses do not do that. They just have the decision makers in the room. There's a time and a place for all of that. But there's nothing wrong with getting everyone together. I've been in meetings with 30, 40, 50, 99 people jumping in just to hear project updates.

And that also helps you with the gotchas, the risk that may occur on the project because somebody on that call may be saying, "They're finally getting to the phase..." For example, building a car. So, we just got the tires and we've done the frame, but now we're getting down to the engine where the engine guy is on. Don't you think he needs to know that his piece is coming up? That's a very important piece. That's why I say everybody in the room, everyone kind of gets on the same page. Things come out that maybe you didn't think about, so the biweekly meetings also sending out that information. What's going on in the project?

There are some people that need to know, other people that just need to be informed. What's wrong with sending that out to everyone? Of course you're going to have some internal communications, but for awareness purposes, I like to let everybody know what's happening. And then when I finally get something where I can show my customers, I invite everyone in to come and take a look. "This is what we have thus far." "Is it the finished product?" "No, but just let me know, am I on the right path? OK?" Because I'd rather know now before I get to the end and I've built you this wonderful Toyota, but it turns out you really, really wanted that Lexus, same brand, same company. So, I think getting in front of the stakeholders, in front of the decision makers early is key as well. So, I like to keep everyone involved the meetings and demoing.

Deb Zahn: And let me ask you, because you've mentioned communication a few times and there hasn't been, I'm trying to think if there's been any organizations who haven't highlighted communication as a struggle, particularly as they get bigger and particularly as they get complex. So, they might've started as 15 people in a room together and now they have multiple sites and hundreds of people and they're still trying to do what they did when they were sitting in a room and they had a sofa. And you mentioned a few ways like, get everybody together at key pivotal points. How else do you encourage folks to really make effective communication a normal part of what they do?

Eva Higgins: I encourage the subgroups. Like I said, I've been on calls with 99 people on the call. I like it when those individuals in the subgroups, when they get together and communicate and talk as well. So, software person here, your database people, all the database people should be meeting and talking, your UI people, all the UI people should be meeting and talking. PM should be meeting and talking, stakeholders and leadership should be meeting and talking. The subgroups kind of get the ball going with their conversations and they bring out things that you didn't think about and then they roll it up to the top, so even more communication.

And I'll say just with me and you on this call, communication is more than just one way. I'll say this, how boring would this call be if you only spoke to me and I didn't speak back? That's a pretty boring podcast.

Deb Zahn: It'd be the worst podcast ever.

Eva Higgins: It's two-way; it's engagement, and then you add in the third person and now you've got to communicate this way, this way, this way. Think of the triangle and then you've got to communicate. It is a very important piece. And I will say this, a lot of times it's communication on projects. So, this person, the company has an issue, but the underlying issue is communication. Nobody knew. How many times have you been in that call? I didn't know that. And then I'm like, "Wow, OK." So, now we've got to go all the way back to the drawing board just because these two people didn't talk. I'm very good at booking meetings for other people to talk. I'm really good at that.

Deb Zahn: You're like the matchmaker.

Eva Higgins: Conversations need to happen.

Deb Zahn: A 100% agree with that. And where I've seen things trip up, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on how you manage this, is an organization whose culture tends to be command and control top down so that folks at various levels, they're used to being talked at and not talking, not raising issues. But what you're describing sounds like not completely flattening, but some flattening within the organization at least as far as communication goes. How do you help command and control folks other than you're going to book the meeting, so they got to show up? But how do you get them past that annoying hump?

Eva Higgins: Nobody hates booking a meeting more than me. But I will say this, it goes back to meeting 101. I try to routinely book meetings with an agenda.

Deb Zahn: Yes, imagine that.

Eva Higgins: We're going to talk about A, B, and C. And I'll tell you this, I've cut my meetings down to 45 minutes. People have been talking about this. When people see that hour, it's like they think, "I got some fluff time." No, you don't. It says an hour, this is a 45-minute meeting. We're going to hit these topics first. I'll leave some room on the end for additional discussions. We can always book another meeting. But nobody wants that. They want their thing resolved in that one meeting. So, that agenda, making sure that I assign the task to the right people in that meeting and I say, "Hey, we're going to follow up." Sometimes I go ahead and schedule their follow-ups just so I know they're on the books.

That means that you have to be looking before that meeting to make sure you have the right pieces for your conversations to happen. And then the goal that comes out of it and then circle back. "OK, I know you guys met on Tuesday. What are we doing now? What's the latest update?" One of the things that I say other than people process and performance is connecting the dots and closing the loop. It is so, so important.

Deb Zahn: I love it when I saw that because that's where things fail when those things don't happen. So, it sounds like the folks you work with are extremely well taken care of and it also sounds like herding cats.

Eva Higgins: Sometimes.

Deb Zahn: So, what are some of the challenges that you really had to face within a number of organizations, and you've got a great way of dealing with it beyond the communication piece that we talked about? What are some of the typical things you see and you're like, "I got a way to handle that"?

Eva Higgins: I'll say this from the system's perspective because I was talking to a group of people the other day and people are like, "Ah, I don't want to buy a new system. I'm so familiar with this. We're functioning very well." But your system can also be your limitation. You want to get this big, nice, juicy client, but then your system cannot handle it. And I'll use an example as CRMs. I think I'm on my sixth or seventh CRM. CRM is a customer relationship management system or tool. There's a bunch of different tools out there. I'm not going to name names, but let's say you're just getting started in your business. So, you went with one of the more smaller popular tools, but now you've landed this huge Fortune 500 client.

They're in like 18,000 locations. OK? So, how do you scale and do that? Well, you may need to spend a little bit of money and update your systems, but people don't like change except when they're buying that new iPhone that just came out. No one thinks about the fact that that's a brand new system. You don't know how to operate it out of the box, but yet every time one comes out, you're jumping on it and you're buying it immediately. You don't even think about it then. Your systems for your business should be the same way. You're going to need it. This is your revenue generator. Why would you let that one thing hold you back?

That's my example for that. And we talk about it all time, systems, processes. I'm not even going to go into hiring because we all know what that jump looks like when you're bringing another person on board. And that's usually the first thing that people do. They hire that person but maybe you didn't need another person. Maybe you needed to expand your system so you're not missing all these gaps, missing meetings, not following up. There's some things out there that can be done. And don't even get me started on the new AI packages that are being rolled out with these systems nowadays. There are a couple of things that businesses can do to stay on top of things, but sometimes it requires an investment. But systems is one of the number one things, processes.

Deb Zahn: Love it. Now, performance is the last one. And I love actually that you put those together. How do you help them make sure and know that they're actually hitting performance targets?

Eva Higgins: So, one thing that people rarely talk about is reporting. They get these tools, but there's no reporting on the back end. I'll use SEO as an example. I spoke with someone the other day. She's saying, "Hey, I just signed up for this SEO thing and I'm not getting any results." Well, SEO takes time. And I had one consultant talk to me the other day and she was saying, it's a bucket. It's a bucket with a hole in it in the bottom, a little small hole. You have to keep pouring in to your SEO bucket. You have to pour in like when you did this talk, when you did this meeting, when you wrote this blog, this newsletter, because all of that stuff is timestamped, right? The sun is shining on it, it's evaporating. You got to keep pouring into it.

That's another thing that I talk about with businesses. You got to constantly work at it, work at your craft, make sure you're getting out there and you're doing engagement, but you're doing the little things to let people know that you're out there and you're doing some engaging things in work.

Deb Zahn: That's right. And that's how you get the performance. So, SEO for folks who don't know, search engine optimization, and think of it is when do you get on the first page of Google? It took me three years to get on the first page of Google. Actually, it was about two and a half years. And now it's consistent where there is one blog that I wrote on retainers, and it consistently shows up. If I put in my name, I show up. But if you put in retainer consulting, I show up on the first page. But that took reworking, that took learning about how to do it. That took constant massaging of performance to be able to show up in the way that I wanted to show up.

Eva Higgins: It's like if you only do it one time, you're that one-hit wonder. You have to do it every time. Consistency. And that's what I meant when I said systems and businesses that don't invest in those things. You've got to invest in your systems. You got to invest in your people. You got to invest in you so you don't burn out as well. I mean, there's a couple of things, but I always try to do my stuff on rotating schedules either every other day or week to week. But these things have to be considered. So, you're optimized, and you can perform well for your business.

Deb Zahn: Love it, love it, love it, love it. So, to all the consultants that are out there and they're in an earlier stage than you, what advice would you give them if they're starting to work with businesses?

Eva Higgins: Make the mistakes. Don't cheat. Don't cheat. Make the mistakes. That way you can learn the lessons. It's so very important. I can remember thinking like, "Ah, when am I going to get my big client and what's going on over here? And why is it not me?" It will be you over time. You have to put in the work. You have to figure out your own processes. Where do you shine? Where's your value? Speaking. Speaking is very important. Communication again. And then when that client comes, you'll be ready because you already know what you want and more importantly, what you do not want.

Deb Zahn: Yes.

Eva Higgins: I cannot stress that enough. I'm saying no more now than ever because when that client is interviewing, you, you should be interviewing them as well. Eva cannot do everything. And I recognize that now. But if you'd have caught me three years ago, five years ago, I'd be like, "Yeah, I can do that." No, I can't. That's not in my wheelhouse. And for me to do that work for you, I would be depriving you of someone who is excellent. I'm good.

Deb Zahn: That's right.

Eva Higgins: But I don't want to deprive you of someone who's excellent at that work, so no. No is very important.

Deb Zahn: And clients recognize that integrity and they appreciate it. I'm so glad you said this. It's interesting because I'm pretty confident, and I've been asked where my confidence comes from, and I actually tell people it's from not thinking that I have to do everything. It's not actually because I think I'm good at everything. It's that I don't think I have to be.

Eva Higgins: Right, no.

Deb Zahn: I know what I rock at, and that's what I go do because I want to serve my clients the best.

Eva Higgins: That's it. And I work with everyone on everything. But if there is something that I feel like, "You know what? We really need to get an expert in on this. I would love for this person to weigh in." I believe that. Let's do that. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's room at the table for everyone. And you're also learning and growing yourself. If you're just like, "Ah, everything has to reside with me." You're not growing. You're not growing, and you're not helping your client either. So, give yourself some room to grow and some grace.

Deb Zahn: Yes, please, please. Lots of grace. It's hard. And you'll get there. I love it. So, where can folks find you?

Eva Higgins: You can find me at my LinkedIn. It's LinkedIn in Eva Higgins 1913. The website is, All these platforms have my emails. You can always email me, chat, LinkedIn. I'm very active on LinkedIn, but in the words of the coach prime time, I'm not hard to find. So, Instagram, Cardinal Delta LLC. I'm a big football fan, so I had to say something about the football, and then I said SEC earlier, if that wasn't a hint, I don't know what was, but you can find me on all the social platforms as well.

Deb Zahn: Wonderful. And we will have links to those in the show notes. Now, I got to follow you on Instagram. So, if you see a cat rescue following you, that's the only account I have on Instagram.

Eva Higgins: I'm glad you told me that ahead of time.

Deb Zahn: You'd be like, "Why is this random cat person..." I'm the random cat person, so I'll follow you on Instagram too. But you post great stuff on LinkedIn, so I encourage everybody to follow you. And so let me ask you this last question, and I know you know how to answer this because you did an amazing podcast on this. Give me the balance. How does it happen?

Eva Higgins: I really try to separate work and home life. I've invested in my systems to separate those things. For instance, I do have a personal cell phone and I have a company phone. After five o'clock, I put that company phone down. I do not give my personal information out to a lot of people, but I tell you what, my family does not have my company info. If they wanted to reach me, they'd have to go on my website and ping me because I try to keep it separate. Those individuals that need to reach me know that this is my personal account and this is how they can find me. They can call me directly. There's no reason for them to be pinging me on this line. So, I kind of separate it that way. I come in when my door is closed in my office, I'm working, I'm working.

I think I mentioned about the house being on fire. If it starts on the other side, I may still type this last little email and then jump out the window or something. I don't know. But I just try to have some boundaries set that way we're all on the same page. And when I'm off, I am off. I love camping, me and my husband, we're RV-ers, so come to Tennessee, more than likely you're going to find me at a state park. I say camping, but I do a little bit of glamping with it. So, that's what I do to wind down and to separate everything. You have to unplug. You have to. It's so important.

Deb Zahn: Love it, love it, love it. Well, Eva, I am so grateful that you came on the show to share all of this, and you clearly got some incredible skills that are out there helping businesses. So, thanks for sharing those.

Eva Higgins: Look, being on this podcast, check the box, year made. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.

Deb Zahn: Thanks, Eva. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Craft of Consulting Podcast. I want to ask you to do actually three things. If you enjoyed this episode or if you've enjoyed any of my other ones, hit subscribe. I got a lot of other great guests that are coming up and a lot of other great content, and I don't want you to miss anything.

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