Deb Zahn: I want to welcome you to this week's episode of the Craft of Consulting Podcast. On this podcast, we're going to talk about three things that are absolutely critical to stabilize your consulting business, scale your consulting business, and reduce those pesky risks that pop up along the way. And oh, and not for nothing, also being able to get that freedom and flexibility that you kept hearing about before you became a consultant.

I brought on Whitney Tatum, who's going to talk about three essential Ps. And that basically means documenting policies, processes, and procedures, and doing that so that everything isn't stuck in your head. So, when the time is right, you can actually get the help that you need to get, and it's not going to suck up more of your time and energy. It is actually going to free you and help you do the things that you want to do with your business. Can't wait for you to hear this. Let's get started.

Hi, I want to welcome my guest today, Whitney Tatum. Whitney, welcome to the show.

Whitney Tatum: Thank you. I am excited to be here.

Deb Zahn: So, let's start off, tell my listeners what you do.

Whitney Tatum: Yeah, so I am the owner and founder of Moxie Entrepreneurial Support Services, and I help small business owners finally have the time to work on their business instead of in their business by helping them with their processes and documenting policies and those fun standard operating procedures.

Deb Zahn: Which you know I love. I love standard operating procedures. They just makes everything easier. By the way, I've never told you this. I love the name Moxie so much because that's one of my favorite words that I know of.It's such a sassy term. So, I love that you do that, and we're going to dive into some of the details of what you talked about, particularly as it relates to stabilizing businesses, scaling businesses, and reducing some of the risks.

You work with small business owners, which consultants are also that. So, this is definitely going to be applicable, but let's paint a picture. If there's a small business owner and they're used to just doing everything and wearing all hats and they haven't figured out their policies or their processes, they wouldn't know a standard operating procedure if you threw one at them, paint a picture of what that looks like in their business. What makes that difficult for them?

Whitney Tatum: So, as small business owners, we become what I like to call the CEO or the Chief Everything Officer, and we're just kind of stuck doing everything. And so doesn't really give us a lot of time to think in the future. We're just at the point where we've built our foundation of our business and we've laid the groundwork and then we kind of hit the ground running. And so I like to call our business a house. So, when you first start your business, it's more of a lean-to where you've got your shelter, but then you just keep adding sticks on in hopes that it will hold up and protect you from whatever's going to come. So, obviously, lean-tos aren't stable, and so we start that business. We don't necessarily think about building the structure like we would in a house.

Deb Zahn: That's right. And not only is it not stable, but we're also the chief firefighting officer who essentially is because stuff happens. And so if you're busy trying to hold the sticks up and at the same time you're trying to put fires up, the normal running of the business will get difficult to do because you will have to do that as well and things are going to get missed and fall through the cracks or worse, explode or implode, however you want to look at that. So, if that's the situation that a lot of small business owners find themselves in and they're trying to stabilize or scale because a lot of folks are like, OK, I got the basics in place. I got some initial money coming in and now I want to grow, grow, grow. What gets in their way of being able to do that?

Whitney Tatum: Well, the number one thing is having all their business information in their head. It's hard to transfer knowledge when it's just in your head, and then you could get away with training someone on the job, but it's them coming back to ask you questions and you having to stop something to answer or retrain. So, it really kind of stifles the growth because it's just, it's all in your head. And unfortunately we're not mind readers yet. Maybe AI will get us there, but right now we're not.

Deb Zahn: Or they do the, and I've been guilty of this when I'm like, OK, I got to bring in help and then I bring in help and I'm like, you know what? It's just easier for me to do it because it's all in my head. And now guess what? I just added another thing to my to-do list that was already more things than I can actually do.

Whitney Tatum: Yes, absolutely. And that's the thing. Also, as business owners, we tend to have a hard time delegating, especially when it's our business and it's kind of our little baby that we've built. So, documenting everything also allows you to see, oh, OK, I can totally give this one task to somebody. And it's all about starting small and saying, OK, I can give this up, or yeah, I don't want to do this anymore. And once you organize all that and document all that, you're like, holy crap. There's so many things in here in my business that I just don't want to do or don't have time to do.

Deb Zahn: That's right. And it's not flipping a switch. So, even a simple one, and we'll dive into the specifics of it, but I'm thinking like, oh, I'm just going to have a bookkeeper enter my stuff. Your bookkeeper doesn't know how you like to do things. Your bookkeeper doesn't know what your categories of your business are. They don't know how to get things. So, you're constantly going to be bombarded, as you said with those questions. So, even simple things like bookkeepers, accountants, virtual assistants, let alone adding employees, the more complex you get, yeah, the more risks you're bringing into your business by not knowing and documenting how do we do things? So, let's get into that. You both of us get really excited about stuff because it's sexy, right? Policies, processes, procedures, those are all sexy things. So, break down what each of those are because policies, processes, procedures for people who aren't nerds like us, what do those things mean and why do they matter?

Whitney Tatum: So, I like to think of policies as the roof over your house. So, it's all the things that define your standards, define the way you do things. This is how we do this as my business. And then the processes are that workflow of doing stuff. So, processes is, hey, I get up in the morning and I brush my teeth and I let my dog out. And that's your process. And then when you get down to your procedures, it's that step-by-step. So, I actually like to call the procedures kind of your walls. So, it's the things that get up to the roof that can keep things going and to really protect you, and they really help with quality control. Again, standards. So, if you, for example, are able to open up a second location, I had an example of a client where I was talking, and they have one location of a pizza shop that's doing amazing and they can't figure out how the second location is not.

And you read the reviews and the quality's not the same, customers don't know what to expect when they get there. And so that's why all these big companies that you go to that people love restaurants or stores, they get the same quality, the same thing because when their employees come, it's like, all right, you're doing the same as this employee as this employee is this employee. And it really helps to set that foundation and structure. So, your policies are very just kind of overreaching standards. Some of them are guidelines. You don't necessarily have to go as strict. Policies also house legal requirements. So, a lot of people don't realize you have these labor requirements or certain requirements and your policies can house that. And it clarifies communication, even if it's just one employee that one employee wants to know, hey, what's your policy on refunds? Like, OK, this customer's upset. Can I give a refund? So, the policies really are the protection. They're that roof. And your procedures are really documenting your processes. How am I ordering things? How are we taking these refunds?

Deb Zahn: I love all of those as you know. But I think of some policies when you have a client or customer complaint, what's your sort of standards for dealing with that? And I have certainly run into, when I've been on teams on consulting gigs, or even on the Craft of Consulting side, when I have people helping me, I can't assume that they think about client experience in the way that I do. I can't assume that they know that I think it's one of the most important things on the planet, and I've built my business on it, business on it, and all of that I have to document somewhere. Otherwise they might think if I have somebody helping me that no, no, no, they're wrong. And the most important thing is to get at the quote truth or make sure that I'm not assigned blame.

And I've had that happen more than once, and I've had to, anytime I'm working with others on consulting gigs, whatever, we have to state and document, this is how we are working on this project and this is how we go about it. And then, OK, step by step, how do we actually do things? But that's where risk comes in, which I think a lot of people when they're thinking about documentation, they aren't thinking about, I'm actually mitigating risk. I'm reducing my risk to as close to zero as I possibly can. Talk a little bit about that. How does risk factor in so that it's worth having those things in place?

Whitney Tatum: I always kind of believe as soon as you start adding the human factor, there's always going to be…

Deb Zahn: Oh, that.

Whitney Tatum: Yeah. And so it starts to protect you first, your standards, your quality. So, it's first mitigating the risk that someone is going to give you a bad reputation. So, that's kind of the number one thing. Then you start getting into more of the risk to your financial bottom line risk to again, that fire that's going to burn your business down or a lot of things. My experience in a previous business I owned, once you start getting employees, you get the risks of EEOC complaints, wage complaints and those kinds of things, lawsuits, that kind of stuff. And policies and procedures can't necessarily prevent all of that, but it can mitigate it by documenting, hey, you were aware of this policy. You can't say I fired you for no reason. These are our policies on this. And so it's really starting to protect you. Again, like a roof is protecting your business. And that's what people don't realize is you built this thing, but you kind of leave it exposed if you don't start documenting your quality standards. But also that legal compliance side.

Deb Zahn: And legal compliance for sure because you certainly don't want to be in front of someone else's lawyer or a judge saying, "Well, no, this is how I do things. It's all in my head, but this is how I do things."

Whitney Tatum: I told them, oh, I told them this was like, and it's a he said, said kind of thing.

Deb Zahn: Which is not going to help you in any way. But there's also the mitigating risks as things unfold in however it is you're delivering your goods and services. So, again, I think about consulting, and again, when I've worked with others and others have been subcontractors to me or others, and something goes awry, a client gets upset about something or they're blowing through the budget. I mean, there are so many different examples of how things can go awry. And if I don't have clear policies of when you work with me, this is what it's like, and I'm going to give you these, and you understand that, so that if you think that you're going to go over budget, this is the point at which you alert me.

If you hear a complaint from a client, I don't care at what level they are, this is the point I expect you to alert me and how I expect you to alert me. I don't want you to call me. I actually want you, I need it documented. Nobody knows that unless we give them something that they can refer back to because in the moment, they're not going to remember everything you said. They're going to have to go back and say, oh, this is how she wanted things done. And if I deviate from that, it's on me hopefully, but at least I've got something to refer back to.

Whitney Tatum: And it gives confidence to people that are working for you to make those decisions. So, if you're not there, if it's a brick and mortar or if it's a consulting client and something happens, they're like, “Oh, OK, what is the complaint process?” Instead of, hold on, hold on, hold on. They have that thing. So, it really gives people that are working for you that confidence to represent your business the way you want them to do that.

Deb Zahn: Love it.

Whitney Tatum: Yeah. There's so many risks we don't think about, and as business owners, we're not born knowing everything. A lot of it unfortunately comes from bad experiences, but that's how I've built my business is that I had the experience of seeing what policies and procedures can do for businesses. And so the importance of that to protect what you've invested in is the biggest thing.

Deb Zahn: Let's talk a little bit more about processes and then procedures because that's the nuts and bolts. If the policy states, here's how we do things, they state, here's how you get it done, which I really like. So, how do you work with someone to develop their processes and then ultimately develop procedures? What does that look like?

Whitney Tatum: Well, I'm a big fan of mind mapping, so I'm also a big fan of technology. And so I like to use Miro to kind of create a process flow. So, I sit with a client at first and it's like, OK, tell me if we're working on a specific thing, tell me how you get from A to Z, right? Tell me all the ways through that. And oftentimes when I do that, they're like, oh, wait, we probably don't need to do this step. Oh, why do we do it? Why do we do this? And so a lot of people don't sit down and think about their operations or think about their processes.

So, that's the number one thing I like to do with clients is like, OK, let's talk about how you do A, B, C, and D. How do you order inventory or how do you, depending, I can work across industry, so each person's different, but we start there and then through that we're like, OK, it's going to obviously branch off. And so OK, we need a standard operating procedure for this specific thing. And then we start kind of breaking out the categories of those operating procedures. And a lot of that sometimes could just be a flow chart or it doesn't necessarily have to be a step-by-step document. Sometimes they're just things as simple as a guideline. So, guidelines are like, OK, if this happens, then these are the suggested actions or best practices, but it really starts with that operational process flow of how you do things in your business. That's my favorite place to start.

Deb Zahn: I love that. And I'll give an example of one that I've found extraordinarily helpful is so one of the first places that a lot of people, particularly who have to do marketing and do social media marketing, one of the first places they start is, oh, I'll bring in someone to do that. And so they bring in someone who always knew the internet and wasn't like me, and there was a time it didn't exist, and they're going to have them do it. Well, OK, so what do you post? Who creates what you post? How do you post? I mean, we had to get it so specific because the people we brought in were very task-oriented. And so they have to be told, here's the task to actually do it. And I don't belittle that. That's extraordinarily happy. Bless those people. I'm glad they exist and they love it.

But we had to get really specific of what hashtags do you use? I don't want people making them up every single time. Where do we post? What times do we actually do it? What to never do so ... Or if something goes awry, then what do you do? There was a series of things that we had to map out step by step so that I wasn't on the edge of my seat at 11:45 saying, "Why isn't that post out? I don't understand why that post isn't out." Well, I thought you said to do that on Friday. No, no, no. We always post these kinds of things on Tuesday. If it's all documented, I'm not stuck in social media land, I'm actually doing the things that bring money into my business directly. And so that's one of my favorite examples because it was painful before we had ... We tried to do it without having standard operating procedures or processes and procedures, and it was torture.

Whitney Tatum: And I find that bringing people in makes you realize all the things that you need to have documented. The great thing about people is we all have different perspectives. So, just because they're tech in one thing, great in one thing, doesn't mean that they are great in another thing. And so I've found that a lot of the times, once we create those SOPs, those procedures, I like to talk to the people that are going to use them. Or I kind of joke where I'm like, I'm going to hire my nephews to read them to find the holes. If a nine and a 12-year-old can follow these without questions, then anyone can. And that's not trying to belittle anyone's intelligence that's making sure you're covering the holes that you don't see because you do it every day.

Deb Zahn: That's right. And even I use that. We call it a run of show, but if I'm facilitating a big meeting or anything like that, I have a standard workflow we go through where we go step-by-step, who turns on that technology when we're going to use it, then who is introducing what we're doing? I mean, it truly is moment by moment how do we create an experience so that somebody feels like nothing got in the way of what we were trying to do? And those are processes and procedures that we go back to and we tweak and we change, but without it, I don't swear on my podcast, but you can imagine the words that I'm thinking, it's a mess. And if absent having those tools that we can turn to and say, OK, now we're going to do something a little bit different, we have to tweak it, but we've got a standard way to do it, and the client and me and everybody is on the same page about, OK, now you, OK, and then this happens and then this happens.

So, even for things that are part of delivering the goods and services need their own processes and procedure. Even invoicing needs its own process and procedure. Collecting payment, whatever it is. Oh my gosh, my heart is going pitter pat.

Whitney Tatum: Well, and the thing is, it's so funny because you start getting into these things and people realize, oh my gosh, this is so daunting. But one of the things because I love this stuff is I love to just make it fun. OK, I'll shadow you. And it's kind of go through this, oh, I saw you did this. And they're like, oh man, I never realized that was part of it. And so it is, it's creating that experience behind the scenes and documenting that. Because no one likes to be in a meeting or no one likes to be waiting for something. Most of us pay for services or go somewhere because we're not doing it ourselves. So, having those things documented, again, I kind of go back to it ensures your quality and standards are met every time.

Deb Zahn: And sometimes it's as easy as, and I know you do this sometimes too. If I'm doing something for the first time, I will do a Loom video. I use the technology Loom and I'll do a video of me doing it. There are other technologies that you can use that will actually document the step-by-step. And there's pros and cons of those. And this is what I think people think of when they think of documentation is I have to sit down and write the whole thing out.

Whitney Tatum: You do not have to do that. And the technology has made things so much easier. Training videos, it creates a training video. So, everyone learns differently. So, if you're doing a Loom and then you create a document and then you do in-person training, it doesn't have to be as tedious as sitting down. OK, step one, I do this step, step two I do this. It could be as easy as recording a Loom.

Deb Zahn: That's right. That's right. And I got so into this because of course, you know my systems person who broke everything down, and when I told her how I did my podcast early on, she's like, "Why are you doing it that way?" But even it inspires things that I do with my clients. So, I gave a client a set of deliverables once for some big growth that they were doing, and I thought they're going to bring on new people that have no idea how to use the tools that we just gave them. So, I ended up actually creating videos and doing standard operating procedures as a deliverable. And I will tell you, the client was blown away.

Whitney Tatum: Oh yeah, I'm sure.

Deb Zahn: So, I didn't just hand them something and go, here, you should totally use this. I basically said, here's how you use this because I understand how businesses and organizations run. So, that's why I love what you do because you can also apply it to other things.

Whitney Tatum: Yeah. And I noticed that I would always kind of create these things when I left a job because I'm just the type of person that I hated having to have that giant learning curve. So, this is back before this stuff, and it was Paint with print screens. You just finally had print screens, and I'd draw the little colored boxes and make an arrow click here. And it just gives that person that sense of, wow, OK, you care, and you've covered everything, and now I'm not confused. And so I love that because clients are like, yeah, I just did training videos for one of my clients. I set up a system and one of their ladies is like, oh man, she kept asking me questions. I'm like, "Check that video out." And she did. And she's like, "This is amazing. You can pause it, you can go back." And so there's so many technologies out there that can help small businesses that people don't utilize enough.

Deb Zahn: But that's one of the other risks you have to think about as a small business owner for anybody is there's turnover. And I know the relief of saying, oh, I finally got someone to help me. And then, oh, they decided they wanted to do more traveling, so they're gone. Or you finally got someone to help you. And then they had a big crisis in their family and they're no longer available, legit stuff because they get to make decisions for their own life. They have to respond to things in their life. And if you have nothing documented, you're retraining every single time.

Whitney Tatum: And also another thing of turnover that people don't realize is not having good onboarding procedures. And saying, "I hired someone." And they're like, "OK, where do I go for my paychecks? Or what do I do for this?" And a lot of employees that come into a situation like that, they're like, "These people don't know what they're doing. Why would I want to stay here?" Even just as simple as having that onboarding, what does that first day look like? What systems do you have to set them up in? And these things that we take for granted in bigger companies because they're there, but in a small business, when you hire someone on them, seeing your structure and organization right up front is going to give them confidence that you are stable and sustainable and that they'll want to stay. But yes, that training turnover or them having to come again and come back, having to ask you the same questions over and over. So, it's really preparing for that anyone can leave situation.

Deb Zahn: The other thing I like about having all the documentation is we can test folks so that their first run at doing something isn't when there's a risk to my business of them getting it wrong. So, we will actually have someone prepare what this post would look like or prepare or do this SOP, but do it separately so that it's not anything that's impacting my business because then they get an opportunity to try it, maybe something's not working and we have to tweak it, or maybe we realize we forgot a step and that wasn't clear and now we have to clarify it. Or they just get confident that, OK, pressure's off. And then the second time or the third time they do it is when it's live and now it has an impact on my business. But that's not possible without documentation.

Whitney Tatum: Absolutely. And sometimes it is on the job training in restaurants or in stuff like that. So, having that documentation for them to feel confident to look at if they do have a question, again, it's all about confidence in that standards and quality.

Deb Zahn: Yeah, I love that. So, I know that there are some people who are not like us and don't naturally love this stuff, and they're resistant to, ugh, documentation. And they have all kinds of feelings about it, what does that look like and how do you help people get past that?

Whitney Tatum: Yeah, so I hear that in those cases where people are worried about creating too much of a corporate structure or too structured or too strict, creating things more like best practices or guidelines. But the idea is you eventually are not going to be in your business. Whether you retire, whether whatever, the idea is getting what's in your head out on paper. And it's up to you on how strict you want to follow these guidelines, but the good things outweigh the bad. These pitfalls that people think about, these parameters that people think about. Documentation, it's not set in stone. It's one of these things where it just allows for more space in your brain because it's out of your brain. It allows for your people to understand how things are done to the standards of your business. And you give them the freedom and say, "Hey, this is how we like to do things. This is the guidelines."

Certain things need step-by-step. Certain things do need to be like, OK, you have to follow this SOP to the T, but this one's more of guidelines or a flow chart. And so the documentation, again, it's building that structure and that foundation that protects your business. Whether or not you really stick to the strictness of rules, it's there for the other people that might want that. There are people that structure, there are people you hire that might want that step-by-step. And so taking the business owner, really starting to think about other people in their business versus themselves. I don't want my business to be strict in all this stuff. But then you have your employees like, hey, I want to know these things. Or hey, how do I do this? And so documentation frees up the business owners. Documentation isn't necessarily just for the business owner. It's for the business. The business is a living thing, and it's for the people that are part of the business, it's for the future of the business.

So, it's not creating such a corporate structure or any of the pitfalls that people kind of complain about. I've found that it creates more space. It makes, like you said, you don't have to worry about the marketing side or the postings, and you get to go work on what you want to work on. And so that's the biggest thing, is all the benefits outweigh all these little excuses or little kind of nervousness because some people also think, well, if I document it, then I'm not needed anymore kind of thing. I've heard that, right? Well, if I transfer my knowledge, then there's my knowledge on the paper and someone could just swoop in and do it. But that's the idea of being a business owner sometimes is we get a business so we don't have to work in it at one point. Unless we love what we're doing.

Deb Zahn: Right. But you can go to the beach sometimes for God's sake because something is on a piece of paper that doesn't require me being there and doing it. So, you talk a lot about the freedom and flexibility that comes with that, and to me, that's the trade-off. Do you want to be in control of every minute detail and have to be involved for whatever that is satisfying? Or do you want the freedom and flexibility? And if so, this is one of the paths to getting that.

Whitney Tatum: Yep, absolutely. Absolutely.

Deb Zahn: Love it. Love it. OK. Any other ways that you're like, look, if you want to improve efficiency or free yourself up, here's a couple of the ways that I propose doing that.

Whitney Tatum: Yeah, I mean, I love some of the technologies out there. I love Loom. I think it's a great training videos. I love ChatGPT. I was one of the first adopters. I had a client that was super into tech, and he's like, oh, look at this new AI thing. So, I've been using that for as long as it's been out. There's a lot of different technologies out there that makes life a lot easier that small business owners or people don't either know of or don't have time to really understand. But if you don't have money to hire someone to do those, even just saying, "Hey, ChatGPT, write me a quick SOP for ordering inventory." And it's not going to be specific to you, but it's a base start where you can really start to hone in. Or what I've done is I've taken transcripts from Loom and thrown them in there.

And there's always that human thing, where humans are going to need to edit it, it's your business. But really taking those initial steps, have a conversation with Loom and say, "This is the thing I want to get out of my head." So, it's those baby steps. If you, again, don't really have the time or money to invest in someone like me, just start doing. I'm all about business owners really helping themselves. So, a lot of my business model is really teaching. I come help set that foundation, but I want to teach you how to create new ones if you need new ones, if you get a new product line or new something or new client. And really empowering business owners, no matter what business they're in, to structure their business in a way that helps them make things more efficient.

Deb Zahn: I love it, love it, love it. So, any advice that you have for new consultants that you've learned in your time running your own business?

Whitney Tatum: Well, number one advice, join the Craft of Consulting membership. Deb did not tell me to say that. No. Honestly, that was the biggest thing that really helped me. I mean, I've been documenting policies and procedures since I was 18. My first one was when I was a cake maker at Dairy Queen back in the early aughts. And documentation wasn't huge, and I was training someone, I was 18. I'm like, "This is how you make our cakes." But just because we do these things doesn't mean we know how to consult on them. Or as soon as I get into a business, I can really hit the ground running. But having that support team, having, again, the Craft of Consulting membership has skyrocketed my business. I mean, I would not be anywhere where I am now. I'd be kind of still flubbing around on certain things and probably charging still way lower than I should be. Having that support group of different experiences within consulting has been super helpful for me.

Deb Zahn: Oh, I'm so happy to hear that. And of course, you were awesome in the membership because you give as much as you take, which is exactly what we're trying to do in there together. So, where can folks find you? If they hear all this awesome stuff, they're like, "I need me some SOPs." Where can they find you?

Whitney Tatum: Yeah, my website. So, my business is Moxie Entrepreneurial Support Services and me that acronym because it spells mess. And originally my first tagline was I clean up your business mess, but was kind of told that you might not want to tell people they have a mess right away. So, you can find me at moxiesupports.com. That's M-O-X-I-E, supports with an S, dot com.

Deb Zahn: Nice. Nice. And we'll have links to that in the show notes. So, let me ask you my last question. How are you finding bringing balance to your life, however it is you think about that?

Whitney Tatum: I find it difficult as a new business owner, as someone who's, again, I've never been a consultant before. But again, having that support group, sometimes I have to post in the membership and get permission, but really kind of understanding why I started the business and really trying to go back to that. And so a lot of consultants, a lot of business owners in general have businesses because they want more freedom. They don't want to have the nine to five or commuting. And so we have to force ourselves sometimes. And so when I'm taking a break, I have to constantly tell myself, it's OK to be on a break. It's OK to be on a break. It's OK to do this.

Deb Zahn: That's right.

Whitney Tatum: And then again, that support group, that support network that says, "OK, Whitney, you can take a break." So, that's been helpful for me to really find that balance.

Deb Zahn: Yeah, it can be really, really hard to give yourself permission. I know this through. I suffer from such an ailment myself sometimes. Well, Whitney, this has just been wonderful to have you on. You know that I love what you do. I adore you, so I appreciate you coming on and sharing this with folks because a lot of consultants don't think about this stuff. And if it's good for small businesses, it's good for consultants. So, that's why I was so delighted you're willing to come on and share what's in your brain.

Whitney Tatum: Thank you. I appreciate that. And my advice to consultants is sometimes we're not the greatest at the things we tell people to do. Kind of do as I say, not as I do. But I've started documenting my things and it's been so helpful at the start. So, start documenting what you do, consultants. It's going to help you so much more later.

Deb Zahn: Oh my goodness. Yes. Thanks again.

Whitney Tatum: Thanks for having me. It was so fun.

Deb Zahn: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Craft of Consulting Podcast. I want to ask you to do actually three things. If you enjoyed this episode or you've enjoyed any of my other ones, hit subscribe. I've got a lot of other great guests that are coming up and a lot of other great content, and I don't want you to miss anything.

But the other two things that I'm going to ask you to do is one is if you have any comments, so if you have any suggestions or any kind of feedback that will help make this podcast more helpful to more listeners, please include those. And then the last thing is, again, if you've gotten something out of this, share it. Share it with somebody who's a consultant or thinking about being a consultant, and make sure that they also have access to all this great content and all the other great content that's going to be coming up.

So, as always, you can go and get more wonderful information and tools at craftofconsulting.com. Thanks so much. I will talk to you on the next episode. Bye-bye.