Deb Zahn: I want to welcome you to this week's episode of the Craft of Consulting podcast. One of the most important things you need to do to get business when you get in front of prospective clients is to nail your elevator speech. That is the clear, concise statement that you make about who you are and what value you can offer to them. And the reason it's called elevator speech is it shouldn't be any longer than an average elevator ride.

This is one of the most difficult things to do for any consultant, particularly when you're first starting off. So I brought on an expert in exactly how to do this. Her name is Chala Dincoy, and she is going to run through how you figure out what you should be saying in the first seconds when you're talking to a prospective client. And how you make sure you do it in a way that is going to yield more business results for you. So let's get started.

I want to welcome to my show today Chala Dincoy. Chala, welcome to the show.

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Chala Dincoy: I'm so excited.

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Deb Zahn: Yeah. So let's start off. Tell my listeners what you do.

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Chala Dincoy: I am an elevator pitch coach because three out of four of you people who are listening, if you own a business, never get asked for your information or for a meeting after you introduce yourself to your prospect. What I do is I fix what you're saying. What's actually coming out of your mouth. And potentially what you're putting on your website. So all your messaging. I fix your messaging so that every hello turns into a request for a meeting.

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Deb Zahn: Wonderful. And that is so important because you actually only have seconds or less to make an impression that opens a door for you. So that's why I wanted to have you on. That is so essential. So how did you get to being that expert in doing that? What road led you there?

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Chala Dincoy: Well, for 18 years I rejected buyers. I was a buyer. I rejected vendors. So I worked for Pepsi, Pizza Hut, Frito-Lay, where I said, "No, thank you. No, thank you," every time I was pitched for various reasons. Not because I was not a nice person. I mean, I am Canadian. But it's because we had vendors of record. We had different buying systems. We were large, large brands. We could not just work with anyone. And even the people who got a meeting with us were pretty much never able to close. I mean, you specialize in the clothes, but it's because their messaging was not right. So I decided about nine years ago to just teach people. To quit my job and teach people how to do this thing. How to actually sell to corporations. How to get in what to say. And that's what I've been doing.

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Deb Zahn: What a wonderful thing to focus on. And so important now because there are so many folks who are going to become consultants or enter the market as consultants. Either because they really wanted to or out of necessity because of what's happening with the economy. And being able to do that well, it can be the difference between success and failure. So that's why I just love it. So with so many people entering the market, there's likely going to be more competition. Sort of more noise in the market. So why does messaging matter generally? But especially in a context like that?

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Chala Dincoy: Well, because what you're talking about is called infobesity, right? Information obesity. I didn't coin that. It's Sam Horan. My speech coach coined that. But there's just too much. At the beginning of COVID when I did a search for free education COVID, I mean, there were millions of hits. And there's so much more content. And as to your point, there's so many more people vying for the reduced spend of the consumer that now you have to stand out. Your messaging has to be so immediately giving value to people that they understand exactly, not only exactly what you do, but what you can do for them.

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Deb Zahn: That's right. And so let's start off with some of the common mistakes. And then we'll talk about how to fix those. But what are the common mistakes you see folks making with messaging that doesn't allow them to get the results they want?

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Chala Dincoy: The number one mistake is generic. It's not specific enough. And it's just for everyone. It's pretty much, "I'll do anything for everyone and just please hire me." And it doesn't work because people can't place you in their mind. They're like, "I don't know what this person does exactly. I don't know who they do it for. I'm not sure how I would..." When people ask me for referrals, and I don't know if you've ever gotten asked for a referral, and they're unclear about what they do, I literally tell them to their face because this is what I do for a living. I'm like, "I would love to refer you. I love you as a person, but I have no idea how to refer you or who to refer you to because you're so unclear in your messaging. How can I refer you?"

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Deb Zahn: That's right. So what's another mistake? Because I've seen that one over and over again. So there's generic. And then what's one of the other ones you see?

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Chala Dincoy: Oh my gosh. The second problem is that they don't have a specialty. So there's no niching down. There's no being an expert in one thing. They're just trying to be a solution for everything. And what I teach is a concept called super niching. So I'll give you an example. I had an IT company client. They were just an IT company. They did everything IT for everybody. And what we did is we super niched them into helping call centers of hospitals and healthcare centers to reduce the call wait time. So then we sub-branded a brand called On-Hold Rescue. And then we developed a logo that had the call center lady with the red cross of…

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Deb Zahn: Nice.

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Chala Dincoy: ...care, right? And within a couple of months they cross-sold that. Or they hooked a meeting with one of their existing clients to cross-sell that new niche to the tune of $805,000. And it was that easy. We didn't have to buy it. They didn't have to hire anyone or buy anything new or do anything different, except to find that gap in the market. Which there was a pain. This was before COVID. Just before COVID. If you're calling a healthcare center, a hospital, and you're put on hold. You could be dying. That's a big, big problem. So that's what we do is we base the differentiator of the clients on a pain point. But at just one facet of the pain point. So if customer service is the pain, the long call-wait time is a facet of the pain that we specialize. We go really, really deep on. And then that's our calling card. So that's the second mistake is people don't have a niche. The third mistake is they're not marketing based on a problem.

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Deb Zahn: That's right. Let's go a little deeper into that because I love that. I know a lot of folks at the beginning, particularly when they're becoming consultants and they just want to say, "Oh, I'm a management consultant," which tells nobody anything about you. And they are afraid of niching because they think it's going to lock them out of opportunities. And you said so many things in there that showed how it actually pries open opportunities. Can you say more about the power of niching and particularly super niching?

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Chala Dincoy: I have this picture that I show when I used to do presentations of a guy trying to eat the pie at a pie eating contest.

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Deb Zahn: Yeah.

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Chala Dincoy: That's what happens when you have no niche is you're trying to eat the whole pie.

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Deb Zahn: Right.

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Chala Dincoy: It doesn't look good. It doesn't taste good. It's not a good experience. And you're still hungry at the end of the day. So that's what I liken having a niche to. When you find and carve out a slice of pie and it's big enough and deep enough to sustain you and feed you for years and years and years, you actually make more money. And this has been proven in every industry. Every sector. Every size of business. Every kind of business. B2C. B2B. It doesn't matter. When you're focused, you grow faster. It was true for me. I certified as a general coach. An ICF coach. The training is the same for business coaches and for personal coaches. So I hung my shingle and thought, "Oh everyone's going to come." And I was starving. And then I decided, OK. Maybe I should do what I used to do for the big brands and niche them because we launched new products every year at Pepsi, Pizza Hut.

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Every year I had multiple new launches. But I had to position them and niche them so that they wouldn't cannibalize the main brand and that we could keep incremental growth on the same shelf. So that's what I then thought. How can I turn this process into one for small businesses because they don't have thousands for research? They don't have the millions of dollars advertising. So then I turned it into this process, which I now teach. And that's what happened to me. I went from generic coach to marketing coach. Then I went super niche into niching coach. And then I went even further into elevator pitch coach. And my income has doubled and quadrupled every time. So I know it works. It works for my clients. You can make a million dollars with a super niche in a couple of months.

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Deb Zahn: 100%. And my story is similar to that where I'm a healthcare consultant. Well, healthcare is so many different things. So I niche down to a particular sector within healthcare. And then I had to niche down into specific pain points that they were having at that particular time, which was a major shift that was happening in the market. And here's specifically the facet of that. Of preparing you for that major shift that I can help you with. And the work just started flowing to me as soon as I did that. So I'm right there with you. The power of doing that is tremendous. And then you said something else in there that I thought was also really powerful, which is it doesn't lock you into that. It can get you in the door. So talk about how once you start working with someone, it can then explode into other things that you do.

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Chala Dincoy: Well, I mean, take me for an example. I pitched myself as an elevator pitch coach and people meet me as an elevator pitch coach. Or they come on my podcast to get their elevator pitches polished. But I am actually a marketing strategist. I help you determine the gap in the market. I help you determine the targets that you need to go after. I mean, I help you determine the whole blueprint of your entire marketing communications and selling. And if you don't have that, and you're guessing at it, you're going to be in a lot of trouble. And that's what a lot of small businesses are just throwing spaghetti at the wall to see, "OK, maybe this time I'm going to try this vertical." They don't even know that they're supposed to be in a vertical. But if they are, they do. It's all guesswork. So yeah, to answer your question. That's what I've developed and that's how I help. And that's what I think everybody should be doing.

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Deb Zahn: Absolutely. Now, so if someone's brand new in their thinking. Let's say they didn't lose their job. Let's say they've been dreaming of being a consultant. We'll take sort of the most positive version of this. And what's the first thing that they should do to get their messaging right? What first steps would you say, "Do these before you do anything else?"

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Chala Dincoy: Research.

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Deb Zahn: Yeah.

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Chala Dincoy: So the first step that we do, and I actually teach this for free on a nine day mastermind. And I do it every six weeks. So just check in with me if you're ever in the place. We have one coming up December 7th. I don't know if this'll run by then, but the first step is we blue sky every single industry and interest group, depending on whether you're B2B or B2C. And then we rate them on a scale of one to 10 based on three criteria. Which are: to reach the decision maker, the dollar potential of that industry or interest group, and fit for you, your personality and skill set and experience. And then that eliminates people who are just guessing at like, "Oh, my cat died. I think I'm going to be a cat rescue consultant." Making it up.

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But it's actually, sadly, true that people are picking verticals and niches to cover their own pain or because they have experience with it. And yet there's no market need for that. So step number one is to do the back of the envelope gut-check with the scoring. The second step is to go out into the market and talk to prospects in that market. Not actual clients. But people who know you to some level. They can't be strangers because you're going to talk about their pain. So what you want, the second step, is to really find out from these different three top industries that you scored in the first part about their most salient and most expensive pain. And if it's B2C, it may not be a dollar pain cost, but it could be emotional.

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And then the third step is to take that data and to put it into a messaging strategy where you actually figure out your super niche. Just like the IT company did. And then you put together a messaging that's based on their pain language of how they talk about that pain because it could be the same. We're missing sales, but a plumber can talk about it differently versus a CEO of an IT company. So that's the basic, very rudimentary answer.

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Deb Zahn: And is there anything in that process you tell people to avoid doing? Just please don't do this?

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Chala Dincoy: Yes, please don't guess.

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Deb Zahn: I love that one.

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Chala Dincoy: Yeah. Stop guessing. You just have to go out and ask.

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Deb Zahn: Yeah. Because you can throw spaghetti at the wall. You might get lucky. But how much time and energy and effort and resources are you going to put into that hopeful faith-based version of building a business? As opposed to doing it in a really deliberate step-by-step way?

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Chala Dincoy: Yeah. I mean, people do fall into niches that do work for them. But it either takes a long time and it's a very expensive road. Or two, they might run out of resources and energy before they get to the right one. And three, it may not be the ideal one for them. So they don't even know how they got it. They don't know what they're doing to get the business. But they know that they are unhappy with that kind of client.

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Deb Zahn: That's right. And I love that you included that is you. So you can work for people that you don't want to work with. You can do work that you don't want to do. But that doesn't create a fulfilling business. And I would argue as you probably would, it's not going to create a really profitable one either. But how do you get folks? That's often the hardest thing. Particularly when they're focusing on becoming a consultant. They get into a scarcity mindset, right? Like, "Oh my gosh, I have to say yes to everything." If I define it, including relative to what I want, that I'm just not going to be successful. How do you get people past sort of the mindset blocks they have to get to a point where they understand what the right positioning and the right messaging is?

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Chala Dincoy: I mean, I have so much to say about mindset. It's everything, as you know.

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Deb Zahn: Yeah.

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Chala Dincoy: When I have clients, it's different when I have clients. Because the clients have already paid multiple five figures to work with me, so they're invested. So I'm going to divide the people who are listening to this into the people who are dying. They want so badly to have the results in the business and that income that they really are willing to stretch themselves and be scared. And then the others, they will never, ever, ever risk more than what they're comfortable with. So what I've seen, my income went away during COVID. I'm in Canada. Last year I had my best year speaking at 14 conferences in 12 months in the U.S. I never lifted a phone. Never lifted my finger. I was asked.

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And then I would speak for 60 minutes and close six figures in the next 60 minutes in the audience. And I had my best year ever. And that all went away in 2020. It just went away because all of my year, even still, the borders are closed to flying unless you have special privileges. And there's no conferences for me to speak at. I mean, they've all been ported to online. But the experience hasn't translated. So I was in the fetal position for a couple of months, and I know that there are other consultants and coaches who were in the same position as me. But the mindset that I've been working on consistently, even though I have a Turkish immigrant background that holds onto money like it's tight. It's like, you do not spend. You save. You save. You don't ride your credit cards. You don't invest in stock. You're just keeping it safe. Safe. Safe. Close to the chest.

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But I've been working so hard on my mindset by paying really expensive, really successful coaches around this topic, that when it came time to do the work, I invested more in my business than I have in nine years during COVID. When I had no guarantees and no money. And I'm a single mom with an 11-year old autistic child. And I support him. I support all his special needs. So then I knew, OK, and I looked at all my other colleagues that we were in the same boat with, and they decided to hunker in fear and they didn't spend. They would not spend. And I spent. I spent my brains out and now it's all come back. And it's come back so much that I'm going to scale to levels that I've never been able to scale to because I couldn't physically go to more events to speak at. I couldn't physically be at more events. COVID's been the best gift for me.

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Deb Zahn: Yeah.

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Chala Dincoy: Right?

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Deb Zahn: I agree.

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Chala Dincoy: That's the mindset. Some people will never make the shift. And others, the ones that have paid me? They've already got skin in the game. And then we start working on flushing out the beliefs. Flipping them over. And then giving them tools to repetitively hypnotize their subconscious. Retrain their wiring to be able to overcome that similar to what I did. So that's what we're working on.

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Deb Zahn: I'm so happy to hear that because I coach people as well. Mindset is one of the biggest blocks. One of the biggest blocks. I remember I was coaching someone, and one of the things I do is I help people figure out their pricing strategies. And we talked. She had dinner. She went to bed. She woke up in the morning and she lowered her price. Nothing had changed. There was no catastrophic event that occurred that would have caused her to do that. It was all mindset. And so we had to go back and say, "So not sure what you dreamt about, but let's go back to what we were talking about."

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And she closed six figures in her first three weeks. And it was largely getting behind the mindset of she was valuable and it was worth doing. And it was worth investing in. I love that. So how do you, once you figure out, you go through a process. And I love your process. You think about what your positioning is in that market and what your messaging is relative to that. How do you know it's the right one? That you're really maximizing your potential for business with what you figured out?

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Chala Dincoy: Well, I mean, we didn't figure it out on our own. The market told us.

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Deb Zahn: That's right.

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Chala Dincoy: So it's 100% right. I mean, if the client does the methodology the way that I've designed it, which is if they go out and they do the questionnaire that we put together. And then they talk to the right decision makers in the right buckets that we've isolated based on the scoring. It can't be wrong because they're the ones who are gathering the information at that moment. In the marketplace. With their prospects. There is nobody else who could tell us more truth than the horse's mouth.

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Deb Zahn: That's right.

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Chala Dincoy: They're in the person. They're in the flesh. They're finding it out themselves. It's not me. It's not secondhand. It's not Googling behind your computer for some secondary research. This is real life stuff. And most of those conversations turn into sales.

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Deb Zahn: Yeah, exactly. What I have found with actually going out and talking to real people, that makes some people nervous, is people like to be treated as experts. I like it. Most people really, really like it. And so if you go in and you're asking them questions about their lived experience, you're asking them questions about their experiences in the work that they do, people like talking about that stuff. And yes, you're right. A lot of times it will end up in a sale. But you will actually get valuable information because I've gotten that question before. It’s like, "Why would anybody meet with me and tell me that stuff?" It's like because they get to talk about what matters to them. And how often do we get to do that?

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Chala Dincoy: Yeah. I mean, specifically what we have the conversations about is their pain.

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Deb Zahn: Yeah.

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Chala Dincoy: So what we find is, especially at a high level because most of my clients are CEOs of multimillion dollar companies and they're targeting corporations. Or they're targeting someone higher up. It's not lower managers. What we find with people who are higher up is that there's nobody for them to open up to. There's nobody for them to confidentially speak about their pain in an objective manner. That the topic experts are able to talk to them free of charge out of the blue. And so they really, really enjoy that. That's one of the reasons why our executive round tables work so well. It's confidential rooms of eight high-level CEOs coming around to talk about a certain topic of pain.

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And if there's not extreme competitive issues, it works. Because if they're in an extremely competitive industry, they could never even be in that room. Even though we signed NDAs. But people in high places meet in small gatherings of two or four, whatever it is, to talk about these high-level issues. And they don't get enough of an opportunity to do that because they're thinking about it all the time. They're talking to their teams about problems that are costing them money. But there's never an opportunity like that out of the blue for them to talk to a subject matter expert who has expertise and a subjective view to the problem. So that's why it works so well because you're talking to the person in pain about their pain. And you're the expert who's going to help solve that pain. Of course, it turns into a sale.

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Deb Zahn: You bet. And you're talking to the right person. So that's often the mistake that I think a lot of folks make. So talk about how they not just gear their message towards decision makers but get to decision makers.

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Chala Dincoy: We work through their existing networks. But what happens is, and for example, one of my newest clients. She was told by her former coach that she could not target professional athletes because they're just too hard to get to. So I don't believe it is impossible for anything. Anybody can be reached, right? And there are so many professional athletes under so many different sports of so many different levels that she could help. There are thousands of them. She just needs a few, right? So that's what we're doing now is using her networks. But what's changed is because it's so targeted in the approach, that even her dentist she's asking for, do you know? So because the target is so prevalent. We know exactly who it is. We know exactly what sports. What level. What age. What area. So then she's able to focus in on her ask. And she's getting a lot more mileage.

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Deb Zahn: That's right. And you got her past the impossible part, which is of course also the mindset part because as you said it. I thought, "If I had to get to a professional athlete, could I?" And I could think of two ways that I could.

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Chala Dincoy: Yeah. Everybody can. It's six degrees of separation. But the bigger issue is having a coach who tells you something's impossible.

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Deb Zahn: That's right. So if you're a coach, just talking about messaging. Yeah, get rid of the word "impossible" and replace it with "how." It's much better.

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Chala Dincoy:  Just say, "I don't know how."

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Deb Zahn: That's right. That's right.

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Chala Dincoy: Right? I don’t know how. Maybe you should hire someone else.

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Deb Zahn: I definitely would agree with that. So I know that as consultants, and COVID's a perfect example. So COVID happened. I know lots of folks who lost everything. All their business within a few days. Or I still had business, but it all got delayed because the form of it had to completely change. But even let's say that's not happening. Just regular course of business. Things change. Things shift either in yourself, your life or in the market that you're operating in. How should consultants approach just relooking at their messaging and their positioning so that it doesn't become stale over time? Or it doesn't morph into something they don't want?

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Chala Dincoy: So 70% of humans purchase based on pain. Only 30% purchase based on something improving or value added. So as long as your market still has that pain, it is still a viable niche. And you will still always make money. Now, what is interesting is if your market loses their buying power, like in COVID certain sectors did. Should you be refocusing? Yeah, go through the same process that I teach to now figure out what is the most prevalent and expensive pain point that you can solve for another group. And reassess the whole group again. When clients and I work, and it turns out that even the three buckets that we've picked are completely wrong.

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There's zero action in them. We just go back to the drawing board and just go pick three more. The three lower ones that we were scoring, right? And then we find out, and the market research is so beautiful that you can find out that you have no markets, literally. And to your point, that could change. So many people hired me during COVID because they were trying to pivot. They were trying to figure out the new niche in the market. The new gap in the market. And where they fit in. Where their zone of genius fits into the gap in the market.

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Deb Zahn: I love that.

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Chala Dincoy: It's changed.

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Deb Zahn: And I like the "just ask" because you also have to determine whether it's a pain point based on something they care about. That they feel. But they're not willing to pay for. And what they're actually willing to pay for.

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Chala Dincoy: That's exactly right. Yeah.

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Deb Zahn: So what types of questions do you encourage them when they're reaching out to those prospects to get that real-world information because generic questions are bad? "What keeps you up at night?" No one should be allowed to ever say that again. But what types of questions do you get them to ask that really will uncover whether or not this is a true market demand?

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Chala Dincoy: Well, we definitely ask the purchase intent. I mean, that I learned from my world at Pepsi. Pizza Hut, I mean. We never launched a product that had, we call it a PI. The purchase intent score has to be 70 or above. So we definitely ask the purchase intent question. Giving a price for whatever the problem is to solve that problem. We go in like a scientist with a pre-baked hypothesis. So we have three pain points that we test against each segment. And then we have it open-ended if none of the three are resounding. Instead of "What keeps you up at night?" we have a better way to ask that. We call it, "What is a persistent and costly issue that you have that you would hire an expert like me around?"

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Deb Zahn: Great.

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Chala Dincoy: That gives us the data. And such amazing things have come out. People have changed 15 years of their business practices based on these conversations that this questionnaire is getting.

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Deb Zahn: I think that is just wonderful. And it also gives you an opportunity to, I imagine, test some of the messaging too. COVID makes it a little harder because now it's on Zoom. But I look at facial expressions to see what sticks because I have found even slight changes. And I was helping someone with something this morning where she's talking to folks. And they're excited about all kinds of things. But instead of saying even something as simple as, "I've talked with a bunch of folks. You've had a chance too. Let's talk about if I could help you." I said, "No, no, no, where can I be most helpful?" Just little changes like that change the psychology and change the dynamic in it. And this gives you an opportunity to do that. Do you help people figure out how to tweak the language so that it's positive? And it moves away from nos and closer to yeses? What type of stuff do you do to help folks with that?

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Chala Dincoy: There's two stages to a sale, right? The first is to get them to ask, "How much is it?" So everything you do until that question is called marketing. Everything you do after that question, it's called selling. So absolutely I train people in both. And everything up to that question in marketing is pain based. Everything from that question afterwards is you have to get both. So you have to do the aspirational. The future perfect. And then the pain. You have to position yourself as the vehicle between the two. And then you're selling them the solution between the two.

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So unless you do the steps, you'd go through the steps in that selling conversation to uncover the pain and the urgency. And then the future perfect and what's at stake. You can never really comfortably sell what you have and your value because they haven't considered what the value of the gap is. And then of course, when you talk about the comparative value of, "Hey, where's the disconnect if you're saying this is too much, but you're telling me that you're about to lose your job.” Or your business. Or your life. Whatever. So we definitely talk about that. I mean, it's critical. It's critical.

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Deb Zahn: Just hearing you describe it, you're obviously taking to the folks on the other side through an emotional journey as well. Oh yeah, I mean human beings. Let's just say it again. Largely make decisions based on emotions and then they rationalize it. So if you start with pain points, they will feel that. But you can't leave them hanging there. You've got to give them some relief. And guess what? You're the relief.

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Chala Dincoy: Exactly. You have to position yourself as the relief by telling them how you've helped other people in the same problem. And the results you've gotten for them.

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Deb Zahn: Ah, this is wonderful. Such great stuff. Well, let me ask you a question because obviously life balance matters to everybody during COVID. But even before. How do you bring balance to your life with all of this great stuff you're doing? However it is you define it?

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Chala Dincoy: I work out. I've been in such pain because the gyms have been closed in Canada.

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Deb Zahn: Yeah.

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Chala Dincoy: They're opening tomorrow, but only 10 people at a time. So it was already always closed. Booked out 50 people. Now it's going to be 10. So I guess I'm just going to keep working out in my tiny condo. But yeah, I have actually a fitness blog. If I'm lucky enough to stay in contact with you, you'll see my posts. You'll see my blogs. And I have photo sessions and then write about my journey because I'm 51. So writing about my fitness journey. What works. What doesn't work. What hasn't worked for me. My nutrition. So that's my passion. That's how I keep balance.  It’s like an addiction. I'm probably going to work out after now.

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Deb Zahn: This is great. Yeah. I'm 51 also. And I will tell folks it is never too late because my mom, who is now 80, did not start becoming a jock until she hit 57. And now she kayaks. She bikes. She's a wild woman. It is absolutely never too late to do it.

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Chala Dincoy: Aw, that's lovely.

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Deb Zahn: Yeah, she's a blast. Well, so where can folks find you? I know there's many places they can find you because you have a podcast too. But let folks know where you are.

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Chala Dincoy: Well, I'd love to offer a gift. It's my book called Gentle Marketing. And at the same time, you'll also be given an opportunity to book a call if you want. If you think I can help you. If you want to stay in touch. It's at repositioner.com, which is my website. Repositioner.com/gift.

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Deb Zahn: Oh great. And we will have that in our show notes. So you can easily click a link and get to it. And then say something about your podcast because I've listened to it. It's a great podcast.

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Chala Dincoy: Thank you. And that means a lot coming from another podcaster because it's a weird one. It only started off as being five minutes. It's called Polish My Pitch, and people would come on the show. They still do. They come on the show. They do their 30-second elevator pitch. And then I ask for permission to fix it. And then I give them a few suggestions. And then we've now introduced the Deep Dive, which is the second part. Which is a separate episode. And it's 20 minutes of the business owners speaking about their business.

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Deb Zahn: Ah, that's just wonderful. Yeah, I listened to a few of them and how you take folks step-by-step through really honing in on their message from generic to now something that is actually marketable and sellable. It's a beautiful thing. Well, Chala, thank you so much for joining me on the show today.

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Chala Dincoy: It's a blast and the chats were great.

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Deb Zahn: For my listeners, and you know this happens, the rescue cats go crazy. They were calm today. They'll wake up in a moment. But there was no nuttiness today.

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Chala Dincoy: Oh, I don't know if they're Canadian or what the deal is.

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Deb Zahn: Well, on a few podcasts, they've certainly seemed like they were from the U.S. running around. Smashing things. Yeah, that sounded about right. Chala, thanks again so much.

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Chala Dincoy: Bye-bye.

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Deb Zahn: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Craft of Consulting Podcast. I want to ask you to do actually three things. If you enjoyed this episode or if you've enjoyed any of my other ones, hit subscribe. I got a lot of other great guests that are coming up and a lot of other great content and I don't want you to miss anything. But the other two things that I'm going to ask you to do is, one is, if you have any comments, so if you have any suggestions or any kind of feedback that will help make this podcast more helpful to more listeners, please include those.

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And then the last thing is, again, if you've gotten something out of this, share it, share it with somebody you know who's a consultant or thinking about being a consultant, and make sure that they also have access to all this great content and all the other great content that's going to be coming up.

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So as always, you can go and get more wonderful information and tools at craftofconsulting.com. Thanks so much. I will talk to you on the next episode. Bye-bye.